Bullpups - the Concept

A lot of the reason why SF use the M4 class rifle and it' variants is because there is a lot of joint operations with other specific nations and it offers commonality. Also keep in mind the US is perpetual at war or engaged in hotspots and the last 10 years a lot of money has gone into the M4 rifle in regards to laser,optics,NVG,thermal,various accessories etc. Many of the key countries that went the bullpup route are smaller nations or are not at war really. Plus you have the US market pushing the M4 rifle into so many other genres like hunting and various sport activities. I know Britain and France have Bullpups, but they are older guns. Really the benefit of the AR was the ability to add more things onto your gun with extra real estate on the rail, also the fact that there were so many companies already geared to produce attachments for the AR has pushed it the way it has to be the number one rifle. I mean Austria and Australia are not big players in the grand scheme of things.

All that being said i prefer the piston system simply for the easy use of cleaning the rifle, it saves me time because I usually if not always keep my gun show room clean and always well lubed. Although the frog lube makes me not care now about cleaning my guns anymore has been a big change for me, and a blessing in disguise.

Really I just can't wait to see who wins if the wars around the world really slow down and see what AR companies will survive after the boom. If Obama wins this next election and comes down with some serious restrictions in the US if that is at all possible anymore, it will be interesting to see what companies can survive on MIL/LEO sales only?
 
Leibermuster said:
A lot of the reason why SF use the M4 class rifle and it' variants is because there is a lot of joint operations with other specific nations and it offers commonality. Also keep in mind the US is perpetual at war or engaged in hotspots and the last 10 years a lot of money has gone into the M4 rifle in regards to laser,optics,NVG,thermal,various accessories etc. Many of the key countries that went the bullpup route are smaller nations or are not at war really. Plus you have the US market pushing the M4 rifle into so many other genres like hunting and various sport activities. I know Britain and France have Bullpups, but they are older guns. Really the benefit of the AR was the ability to add more things onto your gun with extra real estate on the rail, also the fact that there were so many companies already geared to produce attachments for the AR has pushed it the way it has to be the number one rifle. I mean Austria and Australia are not big players in the grand scheme of things.

All that being said i prefer the piston system simply for the easy use of cleaning the rifle, it saves me time because I usually if not always keep my gun show room clean and always well lubed. Although the frog lube makes me not care now about cleaning my guns anymore has been a big change for me, and a blessing in disguise.

Really I just can't wait to see who wins if the wars around the world really slow down and see what AR companies will survive after the boom. If Obama wins this next election and comes down with some serious restrictions in the US if that is at all possible anymore, it will be interesting to see what companies can survive on MIL/LEO sales only?
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There is far more than interoperability:
Evidence 1) French special forces have used Sig 550, HK 416, HK 417 and HK G36 rifles for ,many years. Many elite French units use FAMAS bullpup rifle but it can't be a coincidence that most French SF don't use it.
Evidence 2) Chinese special forces and many elite unit use conventional layout Type 03 rifle, not bullpup layout Type 95 rifle.

In my youth (20-25 years ago), I handled and shot all available bullpup rifles in service and while their are great as general utility rifle ("truck guns"), they have too many flaws for a well trained rifleman (trigger, ergonomics, safety, excessive concussion, blast and smoke).

Things might have changed and I'm open minded so I'll buy a Tavor and shoot the heck out of it to get an informed opinion but I still hate having a rifle's actions 2" from my eyes, ears and brain!

Alex
 
Again all those are newer better rifles, you have to put that into your equation as well, hell the new Aug a3 is pretty awesome.....my time on them is limited but to say that SF units are not using them is not exactly true either., SF units have the budget generally speaking to get new equipment all the time, the AR rifle as evolved a lot thanks to companies like KAC and HK especially, combined with the driving US civi drive as well. As optics become more compact and reduce weight and take less rail space i think this can bring rifles like the AUG back, into more of a hot weapon to buy.
 
Steve Janes said:
As usual, another great video, very informative.

I completely agree with what is written above, it's good when people can share these opinions and not get flamed by people for it. I have always felt Bullpup's are as stated above an infantry gun over a gunfighters gun. In other words, I would love to carry one around all day, but would hate to get in a gun fight with one. Take it or leave it.

Edit: I once checked out a Tavor in the local shop, wow what a cool rifle, I thought I might buy it, and then I felt the trigger :eek: Are all bullpup's trigger's like that? In all honesty, I don't want to start an argument, but the Tavor's stock trigger was literally the worst trigger I have ever felt, an I am not exaggerating one bit. I hear the trigger cannot be adjusted, and really, it was just awful. They had two of them at the shop and I insisted on trying both of them because I thought something was wrong with the first one, I have never felt a trigger like that before.
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So far this is the most civil discussion on CGN ever. Bull pups mustnt be a religion yet. Just to be clear i love the MilArms Channel.

The reality is that we need to look at the bottom line; the money. Why do Aussie grunts use the AUG? It's locally produced. Israeli Tavor et al support? local production and design. So those are the real reason. 2nd question: Why bullpup? I think it's a case of theory not showing up in reality. The IDEA of bull pup is genius.. until you use one. Seriously, do a support side El Prez and check it out. your support side El Prez will be way better with a standard set up.

Other realities are that if you are engaged in CQB you could be using a sub gun much easier. The only disadvantage there is the caliber. But push .45s through the UMP hopefully will do the trick. Do you have any ballistic range at all? No. But honestly, who shoots F-class from their Corolla? if **** happens in a house or from a car who gives a **** what your fps after 100 yards is.

I 2nd the terrible trigger on the tavor. I found the AUG to be equally as greasy. apparently it's because they are made for full auto where the grunts are not supposed to use trigger reset. they are supposed to take the finger off in theory.

-chris
 
Leibermuster said:
A lot of the reason why SF use the M4 class rifle and it' variants is because there is a lot of joint operations with other specific nations and it offers commonality. Also keep in mind the US is perpetual at war or engaged in hotspots and the last 10 years a lot of money has gone into the M4 rifle in regards to laser,optics,NVG,thermal,various accessories etc. Many of the key countries that went the bullpup route are smaller nations or are not at war really. Plus you have the US market pushing the M4 rifle into so many other genres like hunting and various sport activities. I know Britain and France have Bullpups, but they are older guns. Really the benefit of the AR was the ability to add more things onto your gun with extra real estate on the rail, also the fact that there were so many companies already geared to produce attachments for the AR has pushed it the way it has to be the number one rifle. I mean Austria and Australia are not big players in the grand scheme of things.

All that being said i prefer the piston system simply for the easy use of cleaning the rifle, it saves me time because I usually if not always keep my gun show room clean and always well lubed. Although the frog lube makes me not care now about cleaning my guns anymore has been a big change for me, and a blessing in disguise.

Really I just can't wait to see who wins if the wars around the world really slow down and see what AR companies will survive after the boom. If Obama wins this next election and comes down with some serious restrictions in the US if that is at all possible anymore, it will be interesting to see what companies can survive on MIL/LEO sales only?
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Check that out a bit. Google ANZUS. Australia goes into every war that the US goes into since WWII. So all conflicts that the US has been in Aus is obligated to send troop and deploy with a certain % of active troops and materials.

According to my lads in Aus there would be many instances where the Aus army would not send in their own weapons but would be issued M4s from the American armory. this would be esp true if they were integrating forces [ie. rucking together]. There was never one guy that would be pissed that they left his AUG at home. The ass end of it is like 3" wide. You know what gets hot in 40' weather in the desert? the ass end of a bullpup where all the explosions happen. Wrapping the stock in a bandana was common. Good thing that every swinging wiener in the Aus Mil is trained to use a ton of platforms effectively. Even the grunts get to use AK's pretty extensively. also FAL, FN, M14 etc.

As far a britain and france go they do not have great reviews from boots on the ground. The LS82 dumps your mags when you ride it on your chest gear. ambi mag releases were apparently frequently 'broken' [ie. filed] off by royal marines until later fixed. 2 guys i know that did their service in the French foreign legion hated the Famas. officers would still be toting FALs. The Famas has a terrifying cheek weld in that it is really more of a chin weld due to the mechanical offset. Your jaw gets pounded because the ROF is insane. Any NDs are full mag dumps [that's an exaggeration]. But the best testimony is that it was considered extra lucky to be awarded the designated marksman type position in the FFL because then you got to rock the FAL. All the others were mad jealous apparently.

But that's just what I've been told by the pro's. Every time I get into a CQB situation indoors I get kicked out of that LaserQuest for ECQCing all the 12 y/o's. But IMO those little ####s should know that their laser beams are nothing between 0 and 5 feet compared to a good headbutt.

-chris
 
If you soak the trigger, hammer and all linkages in G96 or similar metal conditioner it will be much smoother. You can lighten the trigger by removing one spring but it will feel spongy like a glock trigger. I've left mine stock and it's not bad.

Quick mag changes and ergos with the Tavor. It's a very nice rifle. As for the gunfighter concept. It's a piston design with the ability to use a much longer barrel in a very short package. As an all around infantry rifle I think it would be exceptional. Greater velocity for better performance and much shorter with piston reliability for urban use or building clearing. Great balance for shooting off hand.

The AR adaptability is it's huge strength. It's a great rifle. That being said I like the Tavor as an all around combat proven firearm.
 
I wonder if IWI will / are working on better trigger design, especially that it will soon be available to a much bigger market (US), who's much larger demand/market could force them to give it a second look. I am no engineer and would appreciate the additional knowledge of understand why poor trigger are such an inherent fact with bullpups.
 
BenL said:
I wonder if IWI will / are working on better trigger design, especially that it will soon be available to a much bigger market (US), who's much larger demand/market could force them to give it a second look. I am no engineer and would appreciate the additional knowledge of understand why poor trigger are such an inherent fact with bullpups.
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Long linkages. The RFB design shortens the linkages significantly.

By the way many stock AR triggers suck. The Tavor trigger is better than most of those. But you can buy a great aftermarket trigger for the AR.
 
BenL said:
I wonder if IWI will / are working on better trigger design, especially that it will soon be available to a much bigger market (US), who's much larger demand/market could force them to give it a second look. I am no engineer and would appreciate the additional knowledge of understand why poor trigger are such an inherent fact with bullpups.
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I wouldnt say its a bullpup thing. ####ty triggers usually come from military guns that are menat for full auto and modified to be semi. AR has good trigger options because it is a sporting rifle as much as a military rifle.

-chris
 
avocado said:
I wouldnt say its a bullpup thing. ####ty triggers usually come from military guns that are menat for full auto and modified to be semi. AR has good trigger options because it is a sporting rifle as much as a military rifle.

-chris
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The full auto function has nothing to do with trigger pull. Stock triggers meet a milspec range for weight only. The gritty crunchy pull with some is not a concern to the military. A decent trigger can be had for about 140 bucks and up.

Tdc
 
stormtrooper1015 said:
No fence sitting for me... My preference leans firmly towards the bullpup platform. From my Tavors to FS2K, I have no issue with the manipulation, and I fully appreciate the mass of the carbine being shifted from the nose to the rear - especially when holding unsupported for a protracted period of time. I've gone through the AR's, and have deployed with, instructed on, and owned several. Those days are past, and I'm more than happy with the rifles I have chosen. I'm also getting used to the strange looks I get at hunt camp when I bring out the "weird" guns...this will be the second season hunting with my RFB...fingers crossed its a successful one.

End of the day, I could give a flying. Foxtrot Uniform Charlie Kilo. About what people want to shoot - its a personal preference so my "whatever" meter is fully engaged. So shoot what you like as long as you like what you shoot...

Cheers M
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Ditto. Well put.
 
TDC said:
The full auto function has nothing to do with trigger pull. Stock triggers meet a milspec range for weight only. The gritty crunchy pull with some is not a concern to the military. A decent trigger can be had for about 140 bucks and up.

Tdc
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But they replace the sear to make it semi only correct? Amongst other measures to make sure you cant easily tamper it to FA.

-chris
 
One of the interesting things about the Tavor is the trigger pack. When they start producing in the US and sports shooters have some input, they (or some aftermarket manufacturer) may produce a custom trigger pack. Just swap 'em out for which application you choose.
 
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