Burnt Guns

Boomer

Boomer

CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Uber Super GunNutz
Rating - 100%
21   0   0
Location
Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
I recovered 2 rifles from a house fire I had a few years back, and I'm interested to know if they can be brought back to shooting condition. One is a Ruger #1 .416 Rigby and the other is a M-700 .222 with a Gaillard barrel. Both guns were in the same rack and sustained equal amount of heat. The scopes completely melted, as did the pillars in the M-700 stock.
 
If the aluminum scopes melted as well as the pillars in the 700's bedding, I think that the rifles are beyond hope, except for the possible salvage of non critical parts. That much heat will have compromised any heat treatment. Aluminum melts at over 1000 degrees F.
 
Heat treatment

Whoa! You are talking about dangerous stuff here!

The temper will most certainly have been lost in the fire. The rifles are junk, serious problems would arise if put back into use.

However, the receivers would have been in a similar state of temper at the factory when they were made, before heat treatment. Theoretically, it is possible to re-heat treat them and bring back to spec.

Not something that everybody could do, but there is no real mystery to heat treating. It is not a complex process, but is an exact science . I suggest contacting a gunsmith that does custom work, ie modifying or building receivers. He could tell you if it would be viable to do. Another source of info would be tool and die makers. They heat treat dies as part of their manufacturing process.

Cost would be a big factor. It may cost more to get something heat treated than it would cost to replace. Even then, I don't know how much confidence I would have with that receiver pulled up close to my face, inches from my eyes!

I have a similar story of rifles recovered from a house fire. I stripped them and used them for parts. Their remains now hang on the den wall and attract a lot of conversation.

I wouldn't do it. You might refurb them and put a few rounds through without any problems, but you would be leaving a time bomb as a legacy for future generations. If a receiver failed, there would be 'instantaneous catastrophic disassembly', somebody would get hurt, or worse.

For what it is worth, it is for this reason I advise that they should be cut, pinned, drilled or welded up so that they can never be used again.
 
englishman_ca said:
Whoa! You are talking about dangerous stuff here!

The temper will most certainly have been lost in the fire. The rifles are junk, serious problems would arise if put back into use.

However, the receivers would have been in a similar state of temper at the factory when they were made, before heat treatment. Theoretically, it is possible to re-heat treat them and bring back to spec.

Not something that everybody could do, but there is no real mystery to heat treating. It is not a complex process, but is an exact science . I suggest contacting a gunsmith that does custom work, ie modifying or building receivers. He could tell you if it would be viable to do. Another source of info would be tool and die makers. They heat treat dies as part of their manufacturing process.
*snip*
For what it is worth, it is for this reason I advise that they should be cut, pinned, drilled or welded up so that they can never be used again.
Click to expand...

Heat treatment is NOT a simple process unless you know the EXACT steel alloy that you are dealing with. Only the factory would have this information.

Being as they are both current production guns, I would call the respective factories. You might be pleasently surprised (especially with Ruger)...

If it were a knife or other object which was not required to hold 60,000+psi within inches of your face & eyes, I'd say knock yourself out, give it a try...

Do Not even think about using (or selling) the bolt, receiver or barrel until you talk to the FACTORY.

Regards
D
 
Pretty much what I thought, but it doesn't hurt to ask. They'll stay on the wall! By the way the M-700 bolt handle was missing, so it got hot enough to melt the brazing.
 
Last edited:
Just to prove to yourself what a bad idea it is, put a proof round in it,and deliberatly blow it apart. With a long string, of course!
 
there was an interesting article in swat last month (or the month before) that covered this and guess what...restored properly they are perfectly ok. article was called 'Project Phoenix'

the point was made that in many cases it was more expensive to restore than to buy new.

jl
 
Boomer said:
Pretty much what I thought, but it doesn't hurt to ask. They'll stay on the wall! By the way the M-700 bolt handle was missing, so it got hot enough to melt the brazing.
Click to expand...

Rather than hang them on the wall where someday someone else may try to fix them up, you should weld them up solidly so no one would put the effort into them again. You can still hang them on the wall afterwards.

As they are now, they are like an old bomb waiting to be found.
 
guntech said:
Rather than hang them on the wall where someday someone else may try to fix them up, you should weld them up solidly so no one would put the effort into them again. You can still hang them on the wall afterwards.

As they are now, they are like an old bomb waiting to be found.
Click to expand...

I don't think that's an issue with the M-700 - pretty tough to open the action with no bolt handle. I could put a spot of weld on the Ruger to prevent the block from moving.
 
tootall said:
Just to prove to yourself what a bad idea it is, put a proof round in it,and deliberatly blow it apart. With a long string, of course!
Click to expand...

x2. Nothing like destructive testing! Make sure you stay safe though...
 
What i can suggest to you is to make your own test, this is 2 rifle that i rebuilt for my cosin, 1 savaga 99 in .308 and 2nd is howa 1500 in 30-06, both gun burn at the same time. What i did is sandblasted both gun, cleaned very well and handload 25 cardrige of each caliber in the maximum safe power. Than with a rubber pad on the shooting table, i installed both barreled action with a long string AND 2 pouch of concreate over it, i have shoot 2 round at the time, cleaning the barrel every time and looking for ANY damage on rifle AND spent case.

Thoses 2 rifle are in use for 1 years now and shoot good, specially the howa 1500 (the white spot on the howa is armafill to fill the rust pittng) they now looke like new with their armacoat paint finish.

You can do that for your self but i don't think you will save money and +1 for calling the respective compagny...

Sendero

armesbrule001.jpg

armesbrule002.jpg

armesbrule003.jpg
 
Boomer said:
I don't think that's an issue with the M-700 - pretty tough to open the action with no bolt handle.
Click to expand...

Not really...... it is just waiting for someone to try and fix it.....
 
Boomer
If that Rem. Sendero in the picture is made from stainless steel, then you are now in possession of a well made gun, it went from 22 Rockwell C (soft as sh*t) to 30 Rockwell C, right where it should be. Silver braze that handle back on and order a new stock, and you now have a fine gun.;)
 
If steel is hot enough it is actually burnt and becomes brittle. That was the problem with the low number M1903 Springfields. Attempts were made to reheat treat them without success. Guns that have been in a fire should not be used.
 
guntech said:
I would guess about 5 minutes at the most to remove the bolt....
Click to expand...


Agreed, a person could weld a stud where the bolt handle had been and beat it open, but that suggests some technical ability, which in turn suggests the individual attempting to open the action is smart enough not to try to use it.

In any case you've got through to me, and your comment about a bomb got me to thinking about my other horribly expensive hobby. Charging the chamber with an appropriate amount of high explosive might be entertaining.

Pics to follow.
 
A couple of thoughts. In its annealed state, the bolt, barrel and receiver of a centrefire rifle are probably stong enough to contain a cartridge without rupturing. This is just considering the theoretical tensile strength of the steel, and the stresses imposed by the discharge of the cartridge. Proper heat treatment can increase resilience, toughness, ultimate tensile strength, resistance to deformation, resistance to wear. Classic Mauser 98s were made using surface hardened mild steel, and were designed to work without using sophisticated alloys (in the 1890s, choice was pretty limited). If the critical parts have been softened, there is every reason to believe that the parts will deform under load. Some oriental copies of the 98 with soft receivers and bolts deformed to the extent that lengthened firing pins were necessary to get the rifles to fire. What I am getting at is that basic design, and fundamental material strength may well make an immediate catastrophic failure unlikely. This is NOT to suggest IN ANY WAY that it is safe to clean up a fire damaged rifle and put it into use. What has happened to the metallurgy of the critical components is an absolute unknown. Re-heat treatment is also an unknown, because the state of the steel as burned is an unknown. That 99 Savage scares the hell out of me. Just because it has been fired, and did not burst does not mean that it is not going to fail at some time in the future. There is also a horrendous liability issue. In the event of a mishap, and litigation, I doubt that there would be any firearms engineer who would testify that the rifle was fit for use, while there would be a lineup waiting to testify for the plaintiff.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom