Bushing Dies vs Non Bushing Dies

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jayquiver

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I have reloaded in the past but haven't reloaded much in the last 5 yrs or so but now have the time and space again. I have mostly Redding FL dies non bushing dies my hunting rifles.

Just getting ready to put together my first custom rifle, Manners EH1, Defiance Machine Anti and just choosing barrel. My plan for this rifle will be a longer range hunting rifle that will get me into longer range shooting on steel.

My question is ... Are bushing dies much more complicated to use ? Will they make a difference for a hunting rifle? From what i understand is that they allow you to have more control over neck tension and are "easier" on brass. They seem to be about 2-3 times the price of non bushing dies.

Currently I will be using Nosler Brass with hope of getting some Laupa or ADG Brass.

I would consider myself a beginner intermediate reloader, maybe a 4 out of 10 (if 1 was someone who never did it and 10 was an expert. ) Any recommendations for what dies to buy?
 
The only time I use bushing dies is for benchrest precision shooting such as 6PPC and long range 6Dasher to 1000 mtrs.
Competing for group size and score.
Hunting and steel I would use standard dies.
Take care and enjoy.
 
Bushing dies are no more complicated to use than non-bushing dies. I've used the L.E. Wilson bushing dies for years--both the neck and full-length versions--along with the L.E. Wilson chamber type seating dies and use them with all my cartridges--precision and hunting. As noted, bushing dies probably work the brass a little less than non-bushing dies, but I think their main advantage is that they don't pull the neck off-center the way a non-bushing die can with the expander plug tugging at the neck on its way out. This advantage should lead to less cartridge and loaded-round run-out, which results in better accuracy. The Wilson neck sizer requires an Arbor press, but the full-length die screws into a standard 7/8x14 press. The Wilson dies go for less than half the price of the Whidden and are of very high quality.

Bushing dies are certainly indicated for precision rifles--target, BR, and long-range precision shooting. They probably provide less noticeable improvement with hunting cartridges, but that hasn't stopped me from using them with all my hunting rounds, where, wisely or foolishly, I consider every 1/4" of group-size reduction worthwhile! 🙂
 
For a completely stock off the shelf rifle, I would not bother with getting bushing neck dies. The Redding dies you have will do just fine.

My die of choice is Redding Full Length Bushing dies for sizing and Wilson in line seaters. I just use these for my .223's. My PPC's and BR's are Harrel dies and Wilson seaters. My hunting rifles use RCBS.
 
I've avoided 'bushing' dies thus far.

The incipient donut will eventually need to be dealt with, this will require the donut be removed (inside neck ream) or seating the bullet above the donut, this may be a challenge depending on how far out the bullet can seated.

With target rifles and hunting rifles I use a Lee neck collet die, Redding body die, Forester seating die, plus others and have also the calibers regular die set, Lee is a good one as the Ultimate set comes with the collet die, seating die, crimp die and full length resize die.

Using these tools the flowing brass will form a donut on the outside of the neck at the shoulder/neck junction. An indication this is happening is increasing effort to close bolt .

This donut can be easily turned off the outside with a neck turning tool.
 
Unless you’re prepared to invest more time and money into what will turn into the quest for exact concentricity and minimizing runout, your standard Redding FL dies will do just fine for 95% of shooters.

There is a learning curve and expense associated with bushing sizing and all of the other equipment that you’ll eventually convince yourself you’ll need lol.
 
regardless of the rifle and chamber specs, bushing dies will aid in making your brass last longer for 2 main reasons. The expander ball in a standard die draws the neck back out to a few thou under to hold the bullet, this drawing action is what causes your necks to grow in length and require trimming, I've never had to trim using just a bushing neck die, the second reason is your not working the brass near as much with a bushing as you are with a full length sizing die, your shrinking the neck diameter back down to a couple thou under bullet diameter, in comparison, if you run a 30 caliber cartridge into a full length sizing die it squeezes the neck down to almost a perfect 7mm neck, that's over 20 thou smaller then it needs to be, then the expander ball obviously expands it back up to just under caliber, this constant moving and working the brass much more then required is what causes necks to crack when they work harden, unless you are annealing.
not all expander mandrels are created equal, you may be running way more neck tension then you need and it will affect accuracy, are bullets hard to seat? the more expensive dies you only pay for once, replacing expensive brass all the time because of thinning, stretching and cracking can add up a lot over a lifetime, especially if your running ADG, Peterson or Lapua brass. If you don't want the expense of the bushings, and the bushing dies, but you care about your brass, and brass life, as much as it pains me to even write this........the Lee collet full length sizing die will essentially do the same thing at a far cheaper price point......can't believe I typed that.........but it's true......
 
BCBRAD said:
The incipient donut will eventually need to be dealt with, this will require the donut be removed (inside neck ream) or seating the bullet above the donut, this may be a challenge depending on how far out the bullet can seated.
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I've read about the "dreaded donut," but don't see that it should necessarily form with bushing dies. Most of these dies allow you to control how much of the neck you want resized. Certainly the Wilson dies do, with the bushing sizing the neck down over just the last 3/16", thus leaving some of the neck (next to the shoulder) unsized. Can't see how a donut would form in this case.
 
South Pender said:
I've read about the "dreaded donut," but don't see that it should necessarily form with bushing dies. Most of these dies allow you to control how much of the neck you want resized. Certainly the Wilson dies do, with the bushing sizing the neck down over just the last 3/16", thus leaving some of the neck (next to the shoulder) unsized. Can't see how a donut would form in this case.
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the donut forms from brass flowing up the shoulder into the neck, with a full length sizing die the brass is drawn up the neck and the neck lengthens, requiring trimming, brass does not grow with the use of a bushing and so the donut forms inside the neck as the outside wall is supported by the chamber. this leaves you either having to ream the inside of the neck, or run the case over an expanding mandrel so you can turn off the donut on the outside of the case
 
the brass that would cause the donut is drawn up the neck with the use of an expander mandrel on a full length sizing die, thus in turn making the neck longer........there is no drawing of the neck with a bushing die hence the dreaded donut forming, maybe that's clearer
 
yodave said:
the brass that would cause the donut is drawn up the neck with the use of an expander mandrel on a full length sizing die, thus in turn making the neck longer........there is no drawing of the neck with a bushing die hence the dreaded donut forming, maybe that's clearer
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What if you turned the necks before the first firing. And then resized only the last 3/16" with the bushing die? On firing, the part of the neck next to the shoulder (maybe .10" from the shoulder to where the resized part begins) would remain larger then the resized part.
 
South Pender said:
What if you turned the necks before the first firing. And then resized only the last 3/16" with the bushing die? On firing, the part of the neck next to the shoulder (maybe .10" from the shoulder to where the resized part begins) would remain larger then the resized part.
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turning the necks and cutting slightly into the shoulder helps as the brass has a void to flow into, but even just partially sizing the neck does not help as the brass flowing up the shoulder from the pressure of burning powder is what causes the donut, if you had a case with no neck and repeatedly fired it you would see a neck starting to form as the brass flows. Ackley went to a steeper shoulder angle so that this pressure was more of a compression on the shoulder brass rather then a ramp that it would flow up, the steeper the neck angle, the more the brass is going to flow
 
yodave said:
turning the necks and cutting slightly into the shoulder helps as the brass has a void to flow into, but even just partially sizing the neck does not help as the brass flowing up the shoulder from the pressure of burning powder is what causes the donut, if you had a case with no neck and repeatedly fired it you would see a neck starting to form as the brass flows. Ackley went to a steeper shoulder angle so that this pressure was more of a compression on the shoulder brass rather then a ramp that it would flow up, the steeper the neck angle, the more the brass is going to flow
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That's helpful, yodave. What if you turned necks, and then neck-sized only with a bushing die? Would this lessen the amount of brass forced into the neck?
 
South Pender said:
That's helpful, yodave. What if you turned necks, and then neck-sized only with a bushing die? Would this lessen the amount of brass forced into the neck?
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no..........it's not the brass from the neck causing the donut, it's the brass flowing up from the shoulder of the case, it is supported by the chamber walls on the outside, but not on the inside of the neck so it doesn't flow straight up the case, it balls up and forms the donut, which would typically be drawn up and removed by the expander mandrel, that extra brass has to go somewhere, and the neck grows in length as it is drawn up the case, thus requiring trimming of the cases, bushing dies don't draw that brass up, and trimming is almost never required, but the trade off is that damn donut

This is why we spec custom reamers to a specific bullet, we try to keep the base of the bullet driving band slightly ahead of where the donut forms, as the donut build, the lead wears and we seat the bullet out further to be where we want to be off the rifling, if the donut form faster then the rifling wears you can and will have a problem, and inside neck reaming is required.
 
yodave said:
no..........it's not the brass from the neck causing the donut, it's the brass flowing up from the shoulder of the case, it is supported by the chamber walls on the outside, but not on the inside of the neck so it doesn't flow straight up the case, it balls up and forms the donut, which would typically be drawn up and removed by the expander mandrel, that extra brass has to go somewhere, and the neck grows in length as it is drawn up the case, thus requiring trimming of the cases, bushing dies don't draw that brass up, and trimming is almost never required, but the trade off is that damn donut

This is why we spec custom reamers to a specific bullet, we try to keep the base of the bullet driving band slightly ahead of where the donut forms, as the donut build, the lead wears and we seat the bullet out further to be where we want to be off the rifling, if the donut form faster then the rifling wears you can and will have a problem, and inside neck reaming is required.
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I would have thought that the brass flowing would come from full-length sizing of the case, not firing. When fired, a case expands against the walls of the chamber; it doesn't contract. Full-length sizing, on the other hand, does reduce the size, forcing brass up into the neck.
 
South Pender said:
I would have thought that the brass flowing would come from full-length sizing of the case, not firing. When fired, a case expands against the walls of the chamber; it doesn't contract. Full-length sizing, on the other hand, does reduce the size, forcing brass up into the neck.
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the shoulder material is pushed up and towards the neck from the pressure of the gases in the chamber, donuts are more common with just bushing neck sizing because there is no expander mandrel drawing that extra material up into the neck, you will never get a donut full length sizing for this reason, but, you will have to trim every other firing where as neck sized brass with a bushing will never grow in length
 
The Lee collet neck sizing die was mentioned above. I own and use these for several calibers and and really like them. (I rarely need to FL resize - the cases just don't seem to need it). However, I do find that a donut will eventually form when using only my Lee collet dies. My calibers are .30-06, .270 Win, and .260 Rem, and these all have the smaller shoulder angle, so perhaps the brass flow upwards is faster on these cartridges? I start to have seating issues at about 5 firings from new.

I bought the inside neck reamers for my Forster trimmer and I now ream the necks every few firings. Reaming is done before neck sizing/FL sizing. The reamer does a great job and removes the donut, or enough of it anyway where the seating becomes totally consistent again. (I use a Hornady bullet comparator on calipers for base to ogive measure to confirm if the seating is consistent). I usually do another reaming every 3 firings after that. Many of the cases don't need it, as I can feel if the reamer blades cut or not. But several of the cases do need it.

It is extra work, but it pays off in consistent seating depth.
 
Biologist said:
I bought the inside neck reamers for my Forster trimmer and I now ream the necks every few firings. Reaming is done before neck sizing/FL sizing. The reamer does a great job and removes the donut, or enough of it anyway where the seating becomes totally consistent again. (I use a Hornady bullet comparator on calipers for base to ogive measure to confirm if the seating is consistent). I usually do another reaming every 3 firings after that. Many of the cases don't need it, as I can feel if the reamer blades cut or not. But several of the cases do need it.
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I guess the other way to deal with this would be to run the cases over an expander mandrel (the same one you used before turning) pushing the donut out to the outside and then outside turn the necks again to get rid of it.
 
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