Busy Bee Mini Mill
- Thread starter Engineer
- Start date
I had the same choice at some point.
If you plan to actually use it regularly, go with brushless - more torque, especially with low RPM. Potentially, less headache with motor maintenance.
Regardless of choice, plan to go over all the moving parts, clean, re-lube and adjust it all.
If you plan to actually use it regularly, go with brushless - more torque, especially with low RPM. Potentially, less headache with motor maintenance.
Regardless of choice, plan to go over all the moving parts, clean, re-lube and adjust it all.
- Location
- Central AB
Milling machines definitely benefit from more power. And that is a 50% power difference. But I suppose it depends what you intend to use it for. Either one will be limited to smallish parts, and/or slower cutting. But given patience can be used to make a lot of things.
No doubt you already know that the vices, tooling, and fastening equipment costs can readily add up, but a lot of that can be acquired as the need arrises.
I own a CX601, and am quite happy with it.
No doubt you already know that the vices, tooling, and fastening equipment costs can readily add up, but a lot of that can be acquired as the need arrises.
I own a CX601, and am quite happy with it.
I have some mills, vice etc, from my TAIG but that $300 could help offset the R8 collets, clamp set etc.
The extra low end torque would be a benifit for sure.
I agree that this is a pretty small mill. But since you're a Taig lathe sort of guy this would be a BIG machine and a good match to go with the Taig lathe.
If the longer term goal is to move up to larger machines for both mill and lathe then I'd say that either is perhaps not where you want to stop on the "upsizing ladder". A better option would be the CX600. It's another lump of money higher than the 612 but it's a far more capable machine both for power and mass. And it would be a good companion for something like the CX708 or CX706 lathes.
If the longer term goal is to move up to larger machines for both mill and lathe then I'd say that either is perhaps not where you want to stop on the "upsizing ladder". A better option would be the CX600. It's another lump of money higher than the 612 but it's a far more capable machine both for power and mass. And it would be a good companion for something like the CX708 or CX706 lathes.
What prompted you to upgrade? Haven't a clue what to do here? The last lathe I interfaced with was in JH shop (40+ years ago).
Used a shaper once (JH shop). Does that accomplish anything a mill can't?
M
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I still own one of these mill/lathe combos. They work well but has its limitations.
- Location
- Central AB
Not an expert on combo machines, but I could see a host of issues with them:
- I would bet that you end up constantly removing or affixing machine components in order to switch between mill and lathe
- I wouldn't be surprised if work space capacity issues come into play
- The key to good milling is the ability to properly clamp the workpiece. Lots of things can be clamped using a good vise, but lots can't. Having a proper milling table with t-slots is invaluable. I can see lots of fastening issues coming up on a combo machine.
- I would bet that you end up constantly removing or affixing machine components in order to switch between mill and lathe
- I wouldn't be surprised if work space capacity issues come into play
- The key to good milling is the ability to properly clamp the workpiece. Lots of things can be clamped using a good vise, but lots can't. Having a proper milling table with t-slots is invaluable. I can see lots of fastening issues coming up on a combo machine.
Run away! Don't walk!
Horrendous machines, and probably done more harm to the hobby of metalworking, than any other single thing.
They suffer from the ironic effect that if you are very experienced, and have a lot of ideas how to get through set-ups that are less than ideal, and can judge the issues that arise in so doing, you might actually have some success with one, but they are usually bought by beginners that have no clue why everything is so bloody difficult, and the sketchy set-ups make it even harder. Very disheartening.
The lathe portion of these machines generally works pretty well for turning wood, and for metal spinning (high revs, tall center heights) but they typically have a very high lowest RPM, making reflexes and confidence a requirement.
Not a great beginner machine.
Cheers
Trev
I bought a machine like that last year just to learn on. First of all I bought mine used with a bunch of tooling for a whole lot less then that! It has served me very well, it taught me basic machining skills and this past summer I picked up a 13X37 lathe to do more serious lathe work. I am keeping my lathe/mill for now and only use it as a mill..... A very frustrating mill at that. It always seems that when you want to mill any parts the damn quill on it will not go down far enough to engage the work. Or it won't go high enough. So your always setting the thing up for every cut it seems. As soon as I get money saved up for a decent mill this will be going down the road. Am I disappointed in it? No it worked good for me, how ever it is very time consuming setting the thing up all the time.
- Location
- pallisers triangle
bingo/ save your money buy a stand alone mill
Montey, if you bought one you would learn the basics. But as you learn you'll read about others doing things that make sense and when you try to do them on your combo machine you quickly find out that the features needed are not there. Those machines simply do not have the right features to do serious machining.
They are also not all that great for milling. The table size is VERY limited so you lack the room for any sort of larger work holding devices. The requirements for supporting the carriage of a lathe and the table of a mill are wildly different and the section used on many combo machines is just not proper for either. So there again you end up not being able to work to higher accuracy levels and when used in a milling mode you end up with lots of play and chatter. On top of all that most of the smaller ones I've seen use graduated dials that are small with divisions that would make working to a resolutions of a thou a bit of an optimistic dream. And never mind working to half thou amounts such as can be done relatively easily on a proper lathe.
If you were only ever going to make smaller items or perhaps build some small model steam engines and the like you might find that these combo machines can do the job. But from the compromises made on them I can say for sure that it would be a frustrating job trying to work to the required tolerances in a proper way. And in many cases where it comes to milling of parts you would need to whittle the metal away in smaller cuts due to the lack of proper table support area through the lathe bed. There's more to how these machines function than just the ability to move a little table back and forth.
If you want to do proper machining and work to things like controlled cuts that result in your pieces being willfully shaped to half thou dimensional measurements on purpose instead of by accident I'd go with Trev's post and say RUN away. In all my years I've only ever seen one combo machine that combinded the proper features of a lathe and an OK sort of mill into one machine. And it was something north of $10K as I recall. It didn't stick around long as a nice lathe and a nice table top mill of similar capability added up to less than the cost of that machine at the time.
If you want to dip your toe in the water without a major cost commitment I'd say watch around and buy a used mini lathe and start out with it. Just be SURE that you find and buy one of the 14" models. The 10 and 12 inch long C-C versions are way too limiting for work room. Get a 14" or even one of the rare 16" models if you are that lucky. Or you may trip over an older but lightly used old iron hobby lathe while browsing the used ads. Depending on what it is and the condition you might find a gem that way as well. I'd tend to avoid the Craftsman/Atlas lathes though. Too many pot metal castings for some major parts that wore out too easily and ruin the alignment.
Use the mini lathe to make a few gun parts and some tooling accessories of the sort which can be produced in the lathe. Maybe even fit it with a tooled up angle plate that holds a little mini tool maker's vise to allow you to do small milling jobs in the mini lathe. It's not hard to do something like that and can help with making things like keyway slots or flats on round parts. If all you ever need is the ability to make small replacement parts then you might well find that a mini lathe and mini mill will serve your needs just fine. For the odd time you find you need to do barrel work just go to a gunsmith like most folks. If you're happy enough with the mini lathe THEN match it up with a suitable size table top mill and call it a day.
If the mini lathe proves to just be a tease to whet your appetite for "a proper lathe" then reconsider how much space, time and funds you can commit to pair of larger machines. I would say that something like the Busy Bee CX701 is the smallest "proper" lathe I've seen out there. It's got the size to hold some serious work items. Even a 1.5" through bore in the head stock which would fit all but the craziest rifle barrels. I don't know how well the other internal features are done and that may put me off. But at first glance it looks very tempting. Most would consider that a "proper" gun smith size lathe that can do any and all jobs starts with the 12x36 size and goes up from there. From my years of working with my own 12x36 and from having worked on a few smaller lathes here and there I would not say that they are wrong either. But if you are willing to forego the more serious stuff like barrel work then smaller lathes can do a lot of nice work on smaller parts or small jobs on bigger parts that can be made to fit.
One thing about machine tools for metal working. Mass and size gives rigidity that provides accuracy. That's just how it works. All metal items are springs. And to work best and give the best accuracy you want the stiffest spring for better control. Another thing with mills is the surface area of the dovetails in the table assembly. A milling machine not only relies on mass and rigidity in the column and head but also on large as practical surface area in the dovetail ways to support the table not only accurately in place but also to conduct the forces through the oil film and into the base in the most controlled manner it can. And to do that requires SIZE and lots of metal. And getting back to the combo machines this is a key place where they just fall flat on their noses.
They are also not all that great for milling. The table size is VERY limited so you lack the room for any sort of larger work holding devices. The requirements for supporting the carriage of a lathe and the table of a mill are wildly different and the section used on many combo machines is just not proper for either. So there again you end up not being able to work to higher accuracy levels and when used in a milling mode you end up with lots of play and chatter. On top of all that most of the smaller ones I've seen use graduated dials that are small with divisions that would make working to a resolutions of a thou a bit of an optimistic dream. And never mind working to half thou amounts such as can be done relatively easily on a proper lathe.
If you were only ever going to make smaller items or perhaps build some small model steam engines and the like you might find that these combo machines can do the job. But from the compromises made on them I can say for sure that it would be a frustrating job trying to work to the required tolerances in a proper way. And in many cases where it comes to milling of parts you would need to whittle the metal away in smaller cuts due to the lack of proper table support area through the lathe bed. There's more to how these machines function than just the ability to move a little table back and forth.
If you want to do proper machining and work to things like controlled cuts that result in your pieces being willfully shaped to half thou dimensional measurements on purpose instead of by accident I'd go with Trev's post and say RUN away. In all my years I've only ever seen one combo machine that combinded the proper features of a lathe and an OK sort of mill into one machine. And it was something north of $10K as I recall. It didn't stick around long as a nice lathe and a nice table top mill of similar capability added up to less than the cost of that machine at the time.
If you want to dip your toe in the water without a major cost commitment I'd say watch around and buy a used mini lathe and start out with it. Just be SURE that you find and buy one of the 14" models. The 10 and 12 inch long C-C versions are way too limiting for work room. Get a 14" or even one of the rare 16" models if you are that lucky. Or you may trip over an older but lightly used old iron hobby lathe while browsing the used ads. Depending on what it is and the condition you might find a gem that way as well. I'd tend to avoid the Craftsman/Atlas lathes though. Too many pot metal castings for some major parts that wore out too easily and ruin the alignment.
Use the mini lathe to make a few gun parts and some tooling accessories of the sort which can be produced in the lathe. Maybe even fit it with a tooled up angle plate that holds a little mini tool maker's vise to allow you to do small milling jobs in the mini lathe. It's not hard to do something like that and can help with making things like keyway slots or flats on round parts. If all you ever need is the ability to make small replacement parts then you might well find that a mini lathe and mini mill will serve your needs just fine. For the odd time you find you need to do barrel work just go to a gunsmith like most folks. If you're happy enough with the mini lathe THEN match it up with a suitable size table top mill and call it a day.
If the mini lathe proves to just be a tease to whet your appetite for "a proper lathe" then reconsider how much space, time and funds you can commit to pair of larger machines. I would say that something like the Busy Bee CX701 is the smallest "proper" lathe I've seen out there. It's got the size to hold some serious work items. Even a 1.5" through bore in the head stock which would fit all but the craziest rifle barrels. I don't know how well the other internal features are done and that may put me off. But at first glance it looks very tempting. Most would consider that a "proper" gun smith size lathe that can do any and all jobs starts with the 12x36 size and goes up from there. From my years of working with my own 12x36 and from having worked on a few smaller lathes here and there I would not say that they are wrong either. But if you are willing to forego the more serious stuff like barrel work then smaller lathes can do a lot of nice work on smaller parts or small jobs on bigger parts that can be made to fit.
One thing about machine tools for metal working. Mass and size gives rigidity that provides accuracy. That's just how it works. All metal items are springs. And to work best and give the best accuracy you want the stiffest spring for better control. Another thing with mills is the surface area of the dovetails in the table assembly. A milling machine not only relies on mass and rigidity in the column and head but also on large as practical surface area in the dovetail ways to support the table not only accurately in place but also to conduct the forces through the oil film and into the base in the most controlled manner it can. And to do that requires SIZE and lots of metal. And getting back to the combo machines this is a key place where they just fall flat on their noses.
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BCRider,
Thanks for the great dissertation. I kind of thought a do it all machine would end up being an overly complicated limited compromise in the end.
I'll take everyone's advise and start simple with a lathe and then decide if I really need to explore a mill.
I'm very limited for space. The size of lathe you suggest is quite simply out of the question for me.
M
Thanks for the great dissertation. I kind of thought a do it all machine would end up being an overly complicated limited compromise in the end.
I'll take everyone's advise and start simple with a lathe and then decide if I really need to explore a mill.
I'm very limited for space. The size of lathe you suggest is quite simply out of the question for me.
M
Thanks for the input BC, while i'd love the CX600 i'm not sure the extra $ are in the budget. The TAIG is a bit of a toy but it's been fun to play with. I'll eventually replace it as well, but i'm starting with the mill, because as small as it is it's a better lathe then mill.
I did manage to make all of the aluminum bits, in the following photo on my TAIG, but holy smokes it's a crap mill
Manged dovetails on it, but never again.
and to the poster who asked about the combo machine, this is why I'm going for speprate machines, even milling a simple flat is a huge production.
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My two bits. You are better off with a lathe as big as you can afford (space, cost), with a milling slide to mount the occasional milling job on, than you ever would be with a combo machine.
Unless you really really need or want a milling machine only. But if you knew that, you wouldn't need to ask!
Cheers
Trev
- Location
- Central AB
