Buy Canadian AR

Here's my take.

1. Those who buy Norc's or other knockoffs aren't looking to get into serious competition, or require exceptional reliability. If they are, they will smith the living hell out of it till the warranty is void anyway. They are somewhat "diposable" toys, plain and simple.

2. Most who buy Norc's wouldn't or couldn't afford a Dlask or a Socom rig. It is not a case of taking or eroding Canadian business, because the business would not exist without the Chinese "discount" grade rifles.

3. Those companies may get cheaper with time, but never to the price of the Norc's. The Canadian options are quality rifles for those who want a quality rifle. They would be foolish to make a cheap version, as it would undermine thier name in the industry. Many excellent companies have been sunk by the "Walmart Effect" (builidng a discount knockoff, that erodes consumer confidence in the entire line).

You would be better off arguing that these rifles are eroding business for Ruger and Remington than the small specialty market. Most folks who buy these, buy them for a cheap but fun semi-auto range toy. If they couldn't afford or justify one of these, they would more than likely buy an SKS, or a Garand, or mod the hell out of a 10/22.

Several Canadian businesses actually benefit from these knock off's too. Just to name a few:

1. Dealers and importers
2. Accessory dealers
3. Gunsmiths
4. Ammunition manufacturers, importers, and dealers
5. The shipping and trucking industry that moves these things around.

The business levels to all of these secondary industries is built on mass numbers of cheap imports brought in and sold across Canada, and the dollar value associated with Norc owner's alone is likley far far higher than both Dlask and Socom's annual balance sheets combined.
 
Last edited:
is the norc a good quality? Daminco made a complete AR in Canada and then were bought out by Colt. The Canadian military has no issues with them. I believe that only the lowers are being built in Canada by the other manufacturers and all the rest of the parts are bought out of the US because it is cheaper. Dlask may make a upper and lower receiver on one model but all the rest of the parts, triggers ,Barrels,upper receivers were mil spec from quality US name brands.
And who has not had issues with products of any manufacture and Ive seen issues that people bring on themselves and blame the manufacture.

NaOH said:
As has been mentioned there is only one game in town to get a full AR in Canada and there have been numerous issues with the QC of them. I won't buy a crap AR just to support a Canadian company. It has to be a quality product.
Click to expand...
 
I'm trying to get some support for Canadian manufacturing of these product but every one wants a cheap norc, If we support our manufacturing of these product we should have no problem getting top quality AR and parts just like in the US. And if the door to the US supply is closed we would already have manufacturers able to meet our demands.


angryeyebrows said:
I thought we were talking about buying Canadian ARs....who said anything about Norinco. Your kinda all over the map here. The above was your response to I guy who outlined what he wanted to see in a Canadian AR and you start talking about Norinco. I understand you used Norinco as an example in your first post but you keep coming back to it. What exactly is your point?

People shouldn't buy Norinco over Canadian ARs?? OR people shouldn't buy any other AR manufacturer over Canadian ARs???

I guess I've lost the direction of this thread.

For me and many others, the fact of the matter is that there is just isn't any quality Canadian made ARs. I understand ATR is supposed to be pretty good but I think they only have lowers right now.
Click to expand...
 
How about a PGW AR? Or screw that how about a proprietary PGW semi auto?

The PGW Timberwolf is regarded by some as the best mid-long range sniper weapons system.

The only complaint about PGW was the military contract where they cut off all communication to the civi's. Now that that is over it seems that they are making leaps and strides in the PR department. You can actually buy one of their rifles now :eek:
 
Yes I agree I tried to get them to do work for me and was told that they were not taking on any work or supplying any products:(
But I don't hold it against them. And incurage them to look at making something along the lines of a AR and maybe not a restricted type something none restricted like a XCR.

nickorette said:
How about a PGW AR? Or screw that how about a proprietary PGW semi auto?

The PGW Timberwolf is regarded by some as the best mid-long range sniper weapons system.

The only complaint about PGW was the military contract where they cut off all communication to the civi's. Now that that is over it seems that they are making leaps and strides in the PR department. You can actually buy one of their rifles now :eek:
Click to expand...
 
marlink said:
Yes I agree I tried to get them to do work for me and was told that they were not taking on any work or supplying any products:(
But I don't hold it against them. And incurage them to look at making something along the lines of a AR and maybe not a restricted type something none restricted like a XCR.
Click to expand...

Well, I think they are out of the gunsmithing/custom business now. It's like asking Remington for a custom build.
 
I think there is a place for Norinco products. Not everybody can afford to drop $2K on a new range gun. The Norinco allows those individuals to get into the game at half the price and who knows, because black rifles are addictive, they might just decide to make the sacrifice to trade up down the road.

Norinco actually produces some quality firearms. The M-14S is a case in point. Given a choice between a built up forged Norinco vs. a cast Springfield Armory with USGI parts, I'll opt for the Norinco everytime.

Norinco 1911 frames are also exceptional values and many famous US gunsmiths have used them as the basis for high-end custom builds. For new shooters, such pistols offer a great value that will get them into the shooting game on a budget. Once into the game, many buyers opt to take advantage of Canadian gunsmiths and retailers to modify/customize their firearms. There is definitely a trickle down effect there.

As for 100% Canadian built ARs...we have Dlask doing that right now.

Now Rick at Alberta Tactical Rifle is getting into the game. I put my money down on one of the first 50 lowers he is producing. It is almost double a stripped commercial lower, but we're essentially getting a custom, hand made lower that will be of the highest quality. The time and care Rick is taking with these is proof positive of that. I'm sure, as his business grows, uppers will be on the agenda at some point.

At present, another Canadian dealer, Walter at Arms East is importing a fine selection of AR barrels for us do-it-youselfers, and you can never go wrong with a stripped STAG upper for a new build. Put that together with a new ATRS Lower and you've got a great Canadian end product!
 
I've owned a Stag, and an Armalite, and now I own a Norinco M4.

this is going to sound crazy... but... I really don't see that big of a difference (Stag vs. Norinco M4).

I don't have a problem buying something that isn't domestic... hell the monitor I'm using is made in Korea and prob half the components in my computer are made in China.

When you compare a Colt Canada C8 to a Norinco M4 there are some differences (MP bolt + barrel, etc)

However, comparing a Stag to a Norinco seems to narrow the gap considerably... I really don't know what rifle is better (I haven't had problems with either).

I'm not much of a "tech" guy... I just shoot em' and if they go bang and hit what I'm aiming at... well, that's plenty good enough for me.

That being said I'll take my Glock over my Norinco NP34 but the Glock is an EXCEPTIONAL firearm in my opinion... Springfield XD vs. NP34 would be a closer race.

I guess what I'm saying is: China makes some good guns... and some crap but I've seen more crap AR's out of the USA then I have out of china.
 
Last edited:
Epoxy7 said:
In summary...make good stuff and it will sell. Make decent stuff at a lower price point and it will sell. Make mediocre stuff at a higher than it should be price point and expect consumers to look elsewhere. This is what Capitalism is all about. Strangely enough China seems to have Capitalism down to a fine art.
Click to expand...

As a business person, I know all too well that wherever China sees opportunity and has the technological prowess, China will move in and take your business away.

I personally spawned more than 20 separate vendors for a product I manufactured in 2001. By 2003, the new Chinese vendors flooded the US market and I was forgotten (but still made a WHACK of cash, but hey, that's beside the point! LOL.)

You can make all the good stuff you want in Canada, but your product has 18 months and then China will take it from you if there is any potential and technological expertise available to them, they will. For Canadian manufacturers there is very little protection. Patents? LMFAO!

For Alberta Tactical Rifle, all that has to happen is for the US State Dept. to ease restrictions and the US AR market to start ramping up supply and that whole Canadian AR idea is dead. D.E.A.D. Prices will fall too far and every store will once again be full of ARs. That is why I WOULD NOT build a AR in .223. It is too risky. You would buy more time for your business if all you made is .308. (And I would buy one).

I don't mean ANY disrespect to any one.

The other BIG problem facing Canadian gunmakers is the FACT that the US dollar is DEAD. The Canadian dollar may fall with it, but the reality is things could get very, very cheap in a deflationary economy if the Canadian dollar regains its ground as I think it will.

We ARE going back to PAR so LOOKOUT!

PS - so here is your risk outline:

US dollar has had "significant" downward moves this week, a harbinger of things to come, eventually all imported ARs will be cheaper
US AR manufacturers are ramping up supply like never before, which could mean firesale prices later this year coupled with a weak US dollars and things will be China cheap and you'll wonder why you would have paid $900 for a NORC
US State Dept. restrictions may ease, this is entirely possible
 
Last edited:
Yes we have already seen this when our $ was at par REM15 were selling last year for $999. and it will happen again I would just like to see us supporting our own economy rather then someone else s.
 
Last edited:
marlink said:
Yes we have already seen this when our $ was at par REM15 were selling last year for $999. and it will happen again I would just like to see us supporting our own economy rather then someone else s.
Click to expand...

I alluded to this already in my prior post...when I purchase a Norc M4 I am supporting our economy. Granted not all of the money stays in Canada, but then not all of it goes to China either.

No different than buying a Remington R15 which is built in the USA. And now that you mention it, would you have such a problem with that particular rifle if everyone was "going nuts" over it and not the Norinco?
 
Let me say this: the USD chart is sporting a bear flag. I've seen this flag a hundred times. I expect the index to find support at around .77 ($USD index chart). It may try to retake its 34 day MA in the short term but it WILL FAIL and move toward its rightful place. That means, you can shave about $0.06 cents off current the current dollar price in the next 4-6 weeks if not sooner. In the long term, most traders are saying the USD is dead, I expect it to fall fast in the next 3-6 months.

See this link:
http://stockcharts.com/c-sc/sc?s=$USD&p=D&yr=0&mn=6&dy=0&i=t29898604471&r=3905
 
as farmer harv said.... even when buying a norc your supporting our economy.... canada does not have ANY firearms producers that make a commercial AR15.... yes we have custom shops that produce custom rifles, but honestly, do you think dlask does over 100-150 rifles a year ??

do you think after rick catches up with the initial orders that he will sell more then 200 per year ??

ask yourself the last time you saw a brand new dlask "spec" ar15 sitting on a dealers shelf ??

what we need to start seeing is canadian manufacturing capacity at a point that the USA and Chinese guns are replaced by a canadian manufacturer that will supply dealers with a product in the same price range.

problem is Dlask and ATR are not setup for "dealer" orders... they are smaller custom shops that specialize and people just order direct.
 
Farmer Harv said:
I alluded to this already in my prior post...when I purchase a Norc M4 I am supporting our economy. Granted not all of the money stays in Canada, but then not all of it goes to China either.

No different than buying a Remington R15 which is built in the USA. And now that you mention it, would you have such a problem with that particular rifle if everyone was "going nuts" over it and not the Norinco?
Click to expand...

I don't remember the overwhelming support for the Rem 15 never seen anything about them or the Rem 25 when they came out and truly better quality. If Obama shuts down the exporting of AR stuff it would be nice to have manufactures in Canada able to give us what we want.
Remember North America has strict labor and experimental laws. Local manufacturing is fighting for a market with little or no support form our government. Norinco is owned by the Chines government how can we compete with that?
 
nickorette said:
How about a PGW AR? Or screw that how about a proprietary PGW semi auto?

The PGW Timberwolf is regarded by some as the best mid-long range sniper weapons system.

The only complaint about PGW was the military contract where they cut off all communication to the civi's. Now that that is over it seems that they are making leaps and strides in the PR department. You can actually buy one of their rifles now :eek:
Click to expand...

Now there is a quality company that I can get behind. If they produced ARs I'd definately give them a try.
 
A few M4s are a drop in the bucket.
Go to any retail store in the country, and try to buy Cdn. made goods.
At one time there was a manufacturing industry in this country, for a wide variety of goods. Plumbing supplies, electronic and electrical goods, clothing, you name it - it goes on and on. International trade is enormous now. A really big problem is that the countries from which we buy most manufactured goods buy relatively little from us.
 
marlink said:
I don't remember the overwhelming support for the Rem 15 never seen anything about them or the Rem 25 when they came out and truly better quality. If Obama shuts down the exporting of AR stuff it would be nice to have manufactures in Canada able to give us what we want.
Remember North America has strict labor and experimental laws. Local manufacturing is fighting for a market with little or no support form our government. Norinco is owned by the Chines government how can we compete with that?
Click to expand...

Exactly...Canada at this point can support some niche market custom builders but to a large extent the global economy means that the manufacturing sector in the first world is never going to be what it used to be.

Supporting local makers is great, but giving your money to companies on the basis of nationality instead of product or service is how you end up with Bricklin and Air Canada.

I put my money where it will do me, the consumer, the most good. In the long run that is the best thing for everyone in the marketplace, including the producers. No point growing hothouse flowers that will die if they get exposed to international competition.
 
Westicle said:
as farmer harv said.... even when buying a norc your supporting our economy.... canada does not have ANY firearms producers that make a commercial AR15.... yes we have custom shops that produce custom rifles, but honestly, do you think dlask does over 100-150 rifles a year ??

do you think after rick catches up with the initial orders that he will sell more then 200 per year ??

ask yourself the last time you saw a brand new dlask "spec" ar15 sitting on a dealers shelf ??

what we need to start seeing is canadian manufacturing capacity at a point that the USA and Chinese guns are replaced by a canadian manufacturer that will supply dealers with a product in the same price range.
problem is Dlask and ATR are not setup for "dealer" orders... they are smaller custom shops that specialize and people just order direct.
Click to expand...

I agree but is it worth it to break in it in a big way or will the Canadian consumer keep looking for a cheaper product. So its a big risk to try to mass produce when everyone runs to the cheapest game in town. I would love to get into this business but I don't think the support is their to mass produce AR here but that do not mean someone shouldn't try.
 
Ok, as you're obviously not willing to actually address any points or questions posed there's no point in me going any further with this. Interesting and educational discussion is one thing, but you just seem to be repeating the same mantra over and over that buying Norinco will turn the Canadian (especially firearms manufacturing) economic landscape into a wasteland.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom