Buy or Build AR10/SR25?

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CplDogNuts

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I want to buy or build a long range(600-1000yard) ar10/sr25. what kinda groups are you guys getting that have bought/built them. what your are running would be helpfull also. Armalite is claming 1 moa(target models), and Knights 0.5 moa.

Thanks
CplDogNuts
 
My AR10 is an Armalite, which is one of the DND demo rifles with match trigger, after market match grade 20” barrel free floated badger hand guard, no flash hider & GG&G mount with Leopold Mark 4 optics and I typically have 1.25 to 1.50" groups off of a bipod at 200 meters with 5 shot groups. This is with factory federal premium ammunition. I assume that both rifles you mentioned would be accuracy wise quite similar. However the Knights Armament rifles are more refined hence the higher dollar requested. If it was me I would look closely at the place you purchase. There is no better firearms dealer then Wolverine Supplies and Wolfgang can build you whatever you want. Not in the know about all the KA dealers. Just my 2 cents.
 
I also have a DND test unit. It came with a 24" Lothar Walther, SS, 1-11.25" twist barrel. The twist is perfect for the 168 or 175 federal match. It can shoot sub MOA. I typically shoot 1/2 MOA at 100meters.

I have all the parts but a barrel to build an Armalite SASS. It is NOT a fast or cheap process.

Once you float the barrel on an AR the accuracy comes down to the barrel, not to say ammo doesn't play a part but if you have a #### barrel ammo won't make a difference.
 
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CplDogNuts said:
I want to buy or build a long range(600-1000yard) ar10/sr25. what kinda groups are you guys getting that have bought/built them. what your are running would be helpfull also. Armalite is claming 1 moa(target models), and Knights 0.5 moa.

Thanks
CplDogNuts
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Well first off unless you have deep pockets or just need the best at any cost then I'd write off the KAC. It's price is just too high. Law of diminishing returns on that one.

The first thing I'd look at is the barrel you want. In reality they will all shoot .5 moa. The only real difference in accuracy is the barrel and triggers. For the distances you want to shoot, what weight of bullet (155, 175 etc) and how much velocity do you need are important. Can you do this with a 20" barrel? Most say yes. But look into this first.

If you can get away with the 20" barrel then the best option right now for affordability and quality is the Armalite. The only negative is it uses modified M14 mags. The original ones sucked, but the last generation which have been out for a long time now are excellent. However most prefer the DPMS/SR25 mags now that you can get Pmags for that system. The Armalite build quality, fit/finish is very good. Not as fancy as the LMT or KAC but still excellent. The DPMS however has lesser specs and is clearly a commercial grade product. But... it has a 24" barrel 1:10 twist and takes the Pmags. Keep in mind though to add a match trigger to the price. Unlike the other ones the DPMS comes with a craptastic standard trigger which really sucks.

LMT with a 20" SS 1:11.25 barrel isn't cheap. $2900 for the base rifle then $950 for the barrel. But it's still a lot less than the KAC. On a side note other than markings the lowers for the two are identical. The Armalite on the other hand is 2k for the target version which fits your needs. The DPMS is $1800 but add another $200 for the triggers so it's really 2K as well.

You could build one with Ma-Ten (either DPMS or Armalite innards) or a complete rifle with Armalite parts. The Armalite one won't be any cheaper than the Target one they sell but you have more options. The M-ten might be cheaper. But you'll have to source parts from various places. If you go Armalite innards then the only advantage is using Pmags the cost will be more though. DPMS innards and you'll have to chase the parts. But you do get a better upper/lower over the regular DPMS.

Lots of choices.

I own:

1) DND AR10 24" SS 1:11.25 barrel. (Shoots great and a piece of Canadian history)
2) DPMS LR-308 24" SS target barrel 1:10 twist. With RRA NM trigger installed
3) LMT MWS with 20" SS 1:11.25 barrel (haven't shot this rifle yet)
4) Parts for Armalite SASS just need barrel and two minor components.

The LMT was one of those deals I couldn't pass up. I like it a lot. Cool rifle. But price/performance wise the Armalite is still my favourite overall now that prices are down from the 3K mark to the 2K mark. It's an easy choice. before I chose the DPMS over the Armalite due to the 1K difference. Given the same choice now with equivalent prices, I would go with the Armalite.

The only one I would absolutely avoid is the RRA AR308. It uses FAL mags. Reports on it are mixed. Many really like theirs but others have had issues. The FAL mag in a AR308 isn't really considered a great option. Bushmaster bought the idea and then sold it back after they couldn't get it to work properly. RRA has managed to get the system to work. But.... I still think you take your chances. I don't really see any need to take any chances at this point. There are a lot of other really good options out there these days.
 
Awsome feed back guys! As far as barrel length i was thinking 20" and i would want to shot the 175grain federal seria match kings. Very interesting to here that the Armalites shoot better than advertised. Makes me lean more towards buying one than building one. Will also be cool to hear how people have made out on builds too.

Thanks, and keep it coming.
CplDogNuts
 
Look at the MR308 if the KAC is out of your price league, all options mentioned above are great. HK works great with anything and will work well with suppressor as well.
 
Epoxy7, good info.

I have been thinking of a SR25/SASS build lately as well. I have been very happy with my LMT AR15 and was looking at an LMT .308. But I noticed yesterday on Armalite's website that their new AR10A SuperSASS is compatible with Pmags. May have to give Armalite a closer look.
 
I just finished off my AR10 build...it's essentially a National Match done up like a SASS (except no adjustable gas system or ceramic coating on the barrel). I also went with a Geissele HS-DMR trigger as opposed to the Armalite 2 stage. I found it nicer. She's heavy but very accurate...it can easily outshoot me. I'm not that great of a shot (think 2MOA for me)...wifey is better (SUB MOA)...booo!
 
TFunfer said:
Epoxy7, good info.

I have been thinking of a SR25/SASS build lately as well. I have been very happy with my LMT AR15 and was looking at an LMT .308. But I noticed yesterday on Armalite's website that their new AR10A SuperSASS is compatible with Pmags. May have to give Armalite a closer look.
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They won't have the Pmag compatible lowers until next year.

A couple things to note about the current AR10 mag. It's based off the M14 mag and you can modify M14 mags to work. Essentially you would never run out of mags. They went this way due to the assault rifle ban and wanted to ensure a supply of regular limit mags. The latest generation is comparable in quality to the DPMS/SR25 mags. Price is $50 per metal mag.

I have both systems. While I do prefer the DPMS style they are close enough these days that it's not really an issue. The early mags were clunky and thee were reports of some issues. The first mags for DPMS (not the original AR10 mags) were polymer and caused a lot of problems. Years after people still believed the DPMS mags sucked even though the metal ones were good and out for a long time.

Bottom line when the new lower comes out I see most going to this style. But in reality the current ones work very well.

If you're concerned about quality of build with the Armalite. Don't be. Fit and finish are excellent. On a side note Noveske builds their 308AR off the Armalite system.

Just a heads up about the SASS the US won't allow it's export. You have to built one. The SASS gas system isn't cheap. That being said you don't need an adjustable gas system. Although it's not a SASS without it.

I should also add to my previos post regarding the DPMS being a comercial grade product. Don't get me wrong the fit and finish is very good. Looks wise it's a striking rifle and clearly a 308AR. The metal choice on the target rifle isn't at the level of the military styled ones. it's slick sided which works just fine and looks really good. But no deflector or forward assist. The bolt release is harder to palm since it's more recessed so you will most likely have to use your thumb. Even when changing the pistol grip on the Armalite you have to use the Magpul screw for the MIAD. With DPMS this doesn't work so you have to use the original screw. The screw is just a cheesy slot style. It works but just another difference when you look close. Again a fine target rifle and very cool looking. But not military styled.

Also should add the LMT MWS has a monolithic rail and you can change the barrel yourself. Good and bad with this. Damage the hanguard and your whole upper needs to be replaced not just the handguard swapped. But on the otherhand it's more rigid and no screws to come loose. As for the barrel change feature. I could see it more as an in the field type of feature for replacing worn barrels without having to send them back to an armory to be changed. In reality it's convenient but not something you would do very often. In fact a new upper is the better way to go for frequent changes.

The LMT comes ready out of the box. I like the Magpul MIAD but the Ergo grip on the LMT works well for me so no need to change it. The Sopmod stock is nice although for prone it isn't ideal. The trigger is excellent. As is the fit and finish. As for price, there were some excellent deals on them. The only issue is they aren't cheap and even less so when you want the 20" barrel. They only come in 16" versions. The barrel swap system means you have to use their barrel. Fortunately they do make a 20" 5R 1:11.25 SS barrel with parkarizing and flash hider.

The KAC lower is identical except for markings and an ambi bolt release on the SR25.

The HK is piston driven. it's nice but expensive and felt a bit bulky to me. Also one of the trade offs with a piston is accuracy. All things being equal a DI AR will be more accurate than a piston one. Anything that introduces harmonics along the barrel isn't good for accuracy. This can be negated but your ultimate accuracy potential will be less. I hear they still shoot very well however.
 
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If you decide to do a build just remember that unlike most AR-15s there is no true 'mil-spec" AR-10 style rifle. Having built literally dozens of AR-15s, when I decided to go the AR-10 route I initially made the mistake of assuming the AR-10 style guns also shared similar platform dimensions. I had a DPMS 24" bull barrel complete upper and was in the process of ordering an Armalite lower to go with it. Luckily I did some additional research on the 'net' before making the final jump and and found to my dismay that the Armalite lower won't fit the DPMS upper. This really bummed me out as the price of the lower from Wolverine was excellent (about $300 at the time as I recall). The mag issue (which has been mentioned earlier) was another fly in the ointment I wasn't aware of.

In the end I went with the DPMS/SR25 style gun just because it seemed that the industy was trending in that direction with accessories & options (like the Magpul mags).

I'm not knocking any particular platform but just cautioning you to be aware that the interchangeability we've grown to know & love with AR-15s doesn't exist with the AR-10 type versions.
 
Same goes with barrel and bolt. Krieger will not chamber a .308 ar barrel unless you supply the bolt you are using for headspacing. They recommend that if you use a DPMS barrel (just an example) that you also use a DPMS bolt, because there is a few thou differance between manufacturers.
 
Epoxy7 said:
They won't have the Pmag compatible lowers until next year.


Also should add the LMT MWS has a monolithic rail and you can change the barrel yourself. Good and bad with this. Damage the hanguard and your whole upper needs to be replaced not just the handguard swapped. But on the otherhand it's more rigid and no screws to come loose. As for the barrel change feature. I could see it more as an in the field type of feature for replacing worn barrels without having to send them back to an armory to be changed. In reality it's convenient but not something you would do very often. In fact a new upper is the better way to go for frequent changes.

The LMT comes ready out of the box. I like the Magpul MIAD but the Ergo grip on the LMT works well for me so no need to change it. The Sopmod stock is nice although for prone it isn't ideal. The trigger is excellent. As is the fit and finish. As for price, there were some excellent deals on them. The only issue is they aren't cheap and even less so when you want the 20" barrel. They only come in 16" versions. The barrel swap system means you have to use their barrel. Fortunately they do make a 20" 5R 1:11.25 SS barrel with parkarizing and flash hider.
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I would like an LMT MWS with a 20" 5R SS barrel, but I may look at sourcing the parts over time and assembling my own .308 AR.

Who is a good source of a quality match .308 20" barrel and BCG?
 
The only one selling the LMT barrels right now is Questar. LMT uses a propriety system.

As for regular parts. Various venders will sell barrels for the AR10 that then need to be installed by a gunsmith. You'll have to search around on the sponsors sights for them. I don't know them all off hand.
 
Epoxy7 said:
The only one selling the LMT barrels right now is Questar. LMT uses a propriety system.

As for regular parts. Various venders will sell barrels for the AR10 that then need to be installed by a gunsmith. You'll have to search around on the sponsors sights for them. I don't know them all off hand.
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Was thinking of building a .308 AR from a Mega Arms MA-TEN upper/lower, but I just picked up a lightly used LMT MWS from the EE instead :)

Now to find a 20" SS LMT match barrel in .308, or maybe .260 or 6.5 Creedmoor if they every show up.
 
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