C F S A C 07

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Next years dates for NSCC and CFSAC.

CFSAC 2007 has approved funding and ranges have been booked at Connaught for the period 1-16 September 2007 for the conduct of CFSAC in the period 10-16 September. This was done with the purpose of providing the time frame 4-9 September for a DCRA NSCC. This booking is firm with Connaught and the only time in September available.

Cheers
BMW
 
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There are still alot of bugs to be worked out before CFSAC happens. Not much has been coordinated beside the national part and funding/resources have not been allocated to the Areas. Hard for me to write the LFWA directive when I don't even have the Army's yet. Patience is necessary here particularly given the Optempo and manning shortfalls for deployment, schools and area IT. From an LFWA perspective, we will be in the middle of the final ex for TF 1-08 prior to CMTC.....it is an ugly time....

Feel free to drop me a line if you have any questions....

Cheers

Jeff
 
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your right morph
but in my own personal bias opinion :) I think its great as a moral builder,espirt de corps, and developing a higher standard in a fundimental military skill.
 
shortandlong said:
your right morph
but in my own personal bias opinion :) I think its great as a moral builder,espirt de corps, and developing a higher standard in a fundimental military skill.
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I don't disagree at all. Unfortunately when we have to decided between deployment training and training new recruits so we can send them on deployments.....we don't have much left. CFSAC will come in time but it needs to be revitalized. We are not a peacetime army and sometimes we forget that we are cashing war time cheques while some in the CF are still in peacetime mode. I for one have not work this hard and the amount of hours ever before in the past 20 years. To be honest, for me to task one of my staff to get on CFSAC, I have to take them off something that in the grand scheme of things IS more important. Troops are expending lots of rounds in training, we have a reflexive shooting program, and there is no shortage of training ammo for those heading overseas. I think we have our priorities right. We are at war.

Cheers

Jeff
 
Jeff
we are cashing war time cheques while some in the CF are still in peacetime mode.
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your right and regretably I am in the NCR need i say more. I am going to stop at that, as this is a public forum.

I would rather deploy anyday(for reasons only a soldier would know) than attend CFSAC
ciao
 
shortandlong said:
your right and regretably I am in the NCR need i say more. I am going to stop at that, as this is a public forum.
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Admitting that you work in the NCR is the first step in realizing you have a problem. There is counselling you can get for this...good luck...:p

Cheers

Jeff
 
Update,

At the recent army conference I attended....all areas recommended that CFSAC be put off until 2008 with the instruction issued now so we can start training and planning. All areas agree that it is too quick considering the op tempo....

Cheers

Jeff
 
Morpheus32 said:
Update,

At the recent army conference I attended....all areas recommended that CFSAC be put off until 2008 with the instruction issued now so we can start training and planning. All areas agree that it is too quick considering the op tempo....

Cheers

Jeff
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Good Idea. After all, who EVER needs to waste time on useless stuff like marksmanship practice and training when there's a shooting war on....

N_R
 
Nissan_Ranger said:
Good Idea. After all, who EVER needs to waste time on useless stuff like marksmanship practice and training when there's a shooting war on....

N_R
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I guess I will take on your comments....since the guys are doing tons of shooting in preparation for deploying overseas, and we managed to kick the Taliban in the butt so far without it, its time will come....just not right now. We are doing more marksmanship practice and training than ever before.....so to be honest, I would rather do CFSAC right with proper lead up training and identification of team members than doing it for the sake of doing it....which is the road we are going to now. What kind of competition would it be when none of the army units can participate because of readiness training...

Our shooting skills are not in question overseas right now....we have a great deal of war fighting stuff to work on which will keep soldiers alive in combat. Not one after action report was critical of the performance of our soldiers with small arms....in fact the new reflexive shooting program and force on force training is being attributed to much of the success of our soldiers in battle. So professionally I think we are doing things right. CFSAC day will come but it is not an urgent requirement right now.....

So from an army perspective....why do we need to run it in 07 and not push it back to 08 and do it right?

Cheers

Jeff
 
Morpheus32 said:
I guess I will take on your comments....since the guys are doing tons of shooting in preparation for deploying overseas, and we managed to kick the Taliban in the butt so far without it, its time will come....just not right now. We are doing more marksmanship practice and training than ever before.....so to be honest, I would rather do CFSAC right with proper lead up training and identification of team members than doing it for the sake of doing it....which is the road we are going to now. What kind of competition would it be when none of the army units can participate because of readiness training...

Our shooting skills are not in question overseas right now....we have a great deal of war fighting stuff to work on which will keep soldiers alive in combat. Not one after action report was critical of the performance of our soldiers with small arms....in fact the new reflexive shooting program and force on force training is being attributed to much of the success of our soldiers in battle. So professionally I think we are doing things right. CFSAC day will come but it is not an urgent requirement right now.....

So from an army perspective....why do we need to run it in 07 and not push it back to 08 and do it right?

Cheers

Jeff
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Well said, and if you had said all that in the post I commented on, you'd have had no post from me. My past experience with headshed attitude was that marksmanship training in the CFs was a waste of time and money. The way CFSAC was run merely punctuated that attitude.

N_R
 
The army of just two years ago is not the army of today. The experience of combat has changed much since last summer. I am proud to say that for once, the priorities are right....combat training....

Cheers

Jeff
 
The men in my imediate family have been shooting paper targets from just after WWII to the present. Their skillsets range from elite international games, Bisley and Commonwealth Games, to IPSC and championships in service rifle and pistol. The evolution of their (our) collective interest from consecutive single precise shots to lots of shots fired rapidly, is a reflection of military firepower and prevailing training philosophies, both military and self-defence.

Will CFSAC emerge from The Long War as a full auto centre of mass hit count? Will squad or fireteam scores count together? Will CFSAC have less precision rifle matches and more volume of fire matches?

Am I glad CFSAC is being carried by stalwarts like Keith and Linda - YOU BET !! Their contribution to sportsmanship cannot be underestimated. We owe them our full support and the encouragement of the CF, even if there are fewer troops to run the matches than ever before.
 
maple_leaf_eh said:
The men in my imediate family have been shooting paper targets from just after WWII to the present. Their skillsets range from elite international games, Bisley and Commonwealth Games, to IPSC and championships in service rifle and pistol. The evolution of their (our) collective interest from consecutive single precise shots to lots of shots fired rapidly, is a reflection of military firepower and prevailing training philosophies, both military and self-defence.

Will CFSAC emerge from The Long War as a full auto centre of mass hit count? Will squad or fireteam scores count together? Will CFSAC have less precision rifle matches and more volume of fire matches?

Am I glad CFSAC is being carried by stalwarts like Keith and Linda - YOU BET !! Their contribution to sportsmanship cannot be underestimated. We owe them our full support and the encouragement of the CF, even if there are fewer troops to run the matches than ever before.
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I have to strongly disagree with your comments. We do not teach fully auto during individual training, in fact the reflexive shooting program has no full auto. The personal weapons test has 98% semi auto for score. I think you have some bias that is not based on what is ACTUALLY happening in the army. Our troops are participating on a two way range right now.....and are doing excellent....is that not the liptmus test of our marksmanship program? As I have mentioned before, the army of two years ago is not the army of today....be careful of your bias.....the army is at war, and it is doing the business. All this without CFSAC. CFSAC has its place, and its time will come....just not right now. Don't get me wrong, I am all in favour of competitions but not at the expense of operational training...which is the current situation because of operational tempo. Our troops are doing extremely well and CFSAC is not the panacea for marksmanship in combat. Aggressive combined arms live fire training is ensuring our soldiers survive in a combat environment. The PWT and gunfighter reflexive shooting has been credited with much of our success....

Don't mix up nostalgia for competitions with the current operational needs of the army. My father and grandfather competed at Bisley but that has nothing to do with combat related training our army needs to do in order to be ready for combat. Our returning combat veterans are bringing an air of professionalism and combat competence to the army that is fundimentally changing how we train and the objects of that training. I have seen this first hand, not just implementing my experiences from overseas but ensuring our troops have the necessary training and equipment to do the deed.

Cheers

Jeff
 
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Morpheus32 said:
I have to disagree with your comments. We do not teach fully auto, in fact the reflexive shooting program has no full auto.

Jeff
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That was a rhetorical question about full auto. If the matches are to evolve with the combat realities, maybe there will be more matches at closer distances with more volume of fire? Which also gives the shooter more points to lose. Or more fire and movement? But prone deliberate matches are an anachronism compared to combat experiences.

Changing the subject slightly, have you noticed any evolution in the standing position guys are adopting in competition? Instinctively putting body armour 'plates to the front' versus, a more classical muscloskeletal (sp?) stand-sideways-and-twist position? We see some pretty gymnastic sitting and kneeling positions compared to "legal" international 3-P rules.
 
To be honest, I don't have an answer what CFSAC should become. I am working on other training related issues that are more urgent and have not thought much about it. I suspect that the answer will be an emphasis on moving targets engaged from non standard shooting positions. Also the inclusion of some sort of target discrimation.....just thinking and writing....
 
.....my two cents

I suspect that the answer will be an emphasis on moving targets engaged from non standard shooting positions. Also the inclusion of some sort of target discrimation.
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that's an excellent idea

I feel we should keep to traditions but there is room for more matches.
if CFSAC starts becoming a big practical CQB match it will take a hell of a lot of planning better to add an IPSC 3 gun to it. or something similar.

But lets face it guys Competition is not training for war, they never will be. things change when bullets wiz by your head. and if i was anything like reality who would want to compete? but thats not to say CFSAC is good for military shooters to get together and later draw on that expieriance if required :)

take care
 
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