C F S A C 07

I keep reading a lot of posts about the relative training value of CFSAC.
CFSAC is not a training exercise and in my opinion does not in and of itself provide good training, nor should it be judged on that basis.
CFSAC is a competition. It is a test. A competition serves as a evaluation of the training that has already taken place and is an incentive to improve performance. The purpose of the many detailed rules is to make this a fair and unbiased test. The awards exist to give recognition to the individuals who have made the best use of training to develop their marksmanship skills to the highest level in the country and this sets an example that gives others a goal to strive for.

If there is a disconnect between the marksmanship training standards and the competition then the two need to be harmonized instead of just flushing the competition down the toilet or downplaying the achievements of the winners.

When changes are made to the competition they should be made with extensive input from the people who have had the most experience with it. Too often critics of service rifle competition (right down to the unit level)have attempted to make changes to matches without making enough use of the knowledge that exists within community of long-time competitiors and team captains, and as a result, some of the examples of this that I have seen were matches that have ranged from unfair or unworkable to downright unsafe.
 
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Quiet said:
I keep reading a lot of posts about the relative training value of CFSAC.
CFSAC is not a training exercise and in my opinion does not in and of itself provide good training, nor should it be judged on that basis.
CFSAC is a competition. It is a test. A competition serves as a evaluation of the training that has already taken place and is an incentive to improve performance. The purpose of the many detailed rules is to make this a fair and unbiased test. The awards exist to give recognition to the individuals who have made the best use of training to develop their marksmanship skills to the highest level in the country and this sets an example that gives others a goal to strive for.

If there is a disconnect between the marksmanship training standards and the competition then the two need to be harmonized instead of just flushing the competition down the toilet or downplaying the achievements of the winners.

When changes are made to the competition they should be made with extensive input from the people who have had the most experience with it. Too often critics of service rifle competition (right down to the unit level)have attempted to make changes to matches without making enough use of the knowledge that exists within community of long-time competitiors and team captains, and as a result, some of the examples of this that I have seen were matches that have ranged from unfair or unworkable to downright unsafe.
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Firstly this is not a swipe at anyone here or against competition shooting. I do have strong feels about priorities, and what we have to do to get people trained for war and bring them home alive.

Right, I have concerns with some of your comments. Right now I sort out training for task forces deploying to combat in Afghanistan. So I will be frank about my priorities....war fighting skills. No one is "flushing the competition down the toilet or downplaying the achievements of the winners" - we are at war, and we don't have the luxury of this type of activity right now. If anything, how would you feel about winning the Queen's Medal.....and no operational army units participated in the match? They can't come because they are practicing all the other war fighting skills that are needed on the battlefield as they are rotating to war. Those that have just returned are busy training new recruits and their fellow soldiers that are preparing to deploy. We have a war that demands over 5000 soldiers overseas every year. That is about 1/3 of the army at any one time...

I also have a problem with your self identification of the "competition community of long time competitors and team captains".....competition community? We are an army, an army that is fighting a war, we don't need a parallel community whose values serve a degree of self interest rather than the needs of the army as a whole. To define self interest, I mean, you like doing it, your good at it, and you want to do more and improve yourself. All noble but it does not support the sustainment activities of the army. I need you staffing an Infantry BIQ or SQ so we can send more soldiers to war. Competitions are to promote, preserve, maintain and enhance a skill....but if we are doing it for real, were does the competition fit in? I would expect the competition community should be with their units helping train the next generation of soldiers as they complete the recruit training. I support the army community.....single minded and single focused....train our soldiers for combat, not competition.

The test? The test is combat, which is our graduate school in what we do....not CFSAC. CFSAC has a place and will have its time but not right now. Examine the matches, make sure they are relevant to the needs of the army, issue the instruction for 2008, allow staff like me to write guidance so people can train properly, and give it a good go for all the reasons you mentioned. It is too late for 2007....we have moved passed the window to do it due to other activities. If we did not have such an operational burden, I would agree that we need a CFSAC competition but not necessarily CFSAC.....but we are at war and we need every swinging #### in operational units, or our schools so we can sustain the army during this time....we have no time for other activities until we have manned up the army and can sustain our leadership and recruit training....

I work crazy hours, spend more weeks away from my family than at home, spend most weekends doing work, and focus myself to ensure I have done everything humanly possible to ensure the soldiers get the best possible training before the head to war. It is my mission in life and for those that know me, know I have no life outside of this effort. I go weeks without seeing my kids and I am in a staff job. If I seem aggressive about this, well it is because I have been overseas myself and have lost friends. CFSAC will have its place and time but I can not as a professional soldier put my hand on my heart and say it is needed this year. I can professionally say, that we can do it right in 2008 but issuing proper guidance, provide resources, and allow the units the time to fit competition training into the calender without sacrificing our institutional support that is so critical right now. If done right, and given Comds enough time to plan, we can achieve a balance....but not this year.

Jeff
 
Firstly this is not a swipe at anyone here or against competition shooting. I do have strong feels about priorities, and what we have to do to get people trained for war and bring them home alive.
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I'm always happy to stir up debate, but I appologize if you were offended by my my post. It was not directed at you specifically and I appreciate your priorities and respect your dedication and the importance of the mission at hand. As you know the same debate about the value of marksmanship has been going on for decades long before 911 or Canada's involvement in Afganistan. My opinions are based on experiences that happened a long time ago and the only reason I am free to express them is because I am no longer in the military.

Competitions are to promote, preserve, maintain and enhance a skill....but if we are doing it for real, were does the competition fit in?
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Thats is a good point. My fear is that since CFSAC has been gone for a few years, the argument that it does not serve training needs is just the excuse some people have been looking for in order to scrap it. My point is that it should be aligned to support training needs by being a higher level test of the same set of marksmanship skills and shooting training programme that the troops are recieving at the unit level.

I also have a problem with your self identification of the "competition community of long time competitors and team captains".....competition community? We are an army, an army that is fighting a war, we don't need a parallel community whose values serve a degree of self interest rather than the needs of the army as a whole. To define self interest, I mean, you like doing it, your good at it, and you want to do more and improve yourself. All noble but it does not support the sustainment activities of the army. I need you staffing an Infantry BIQ or SQ so we can send more soldiers to war. Competitions are to promote, preserve, maintain and enhance a skill....but if we are doing it for real, were does the competition fit in? I would expect the competition community should be with their units helping train the next generation of soldiers as they complete the recruit training. I support the army community.....single minded and single focused....train our soldiers for combat, not competition.
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I agree that the pool of people who have extensive marksmanship experience should be utilized by their units in the field and should also be allowed to help with the organization of the range training practices or provide help with small arms coaching. Maybe that has since changed, but in the first half of the 90's it was not the case and everyone I spoke to from other units had a similar story.
 
Quiet,

You did not upset me with your post. These are challenging times and a lot of people are working extremely hard to make sure our troops have all the training and tools to apply some 5.56mm C77 therapy to some Taliban who are in desperate need. I am proud as hell of our soldiers and what we have accomplished as an army. We are finally doing things right after 20 years (since I have been an active observer). These are exciting times and a great time to be a soldier. We are finally acting like an army!

Oh ya.....CFSAC 2008....go team....

Cheers

Jeff
 
Greatings from Baghdad. Although it is a go....all three reg brigades have noted that it is unlikely they can send teams due to optempo. So it will likely be CFSAC lite.....given the shortage of participation...

Anyway not my concern now......not getting shot is....so I against the planned insurgent small arms competition (ISAC) scheduled for this Sep in Baghdad!

Cheers

Jeff
 
Jeff and Quiet:

You are both right in your contexts. This debate will go on forever especially in light of the finite resources (time, money, human resources). At the end of the day our mission statement of the OSA should be something like :

"How can we tailor our matches to best serve operators?"

Cheers,
Barney
 
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