C77 ball ammo

cybershooters said:
So I got a reply from them, the relevant bit being:



I don't recall them ever selling ammo to the civilian market, but anyway the reason they don't do it now is because they're just not interested in it. Probably too small of a market and GD does tend to avoid civilian sales.

Bugger. I suppose we could nag them.
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Damn.

Well that decision sure let them miss out during the past while when people wanted PMC/Federal 5.56 M193/M855 but there wasn't much supply. Hell, they could have probably sold to the US as well.

I wonder what sort of commercial sales volume they would need in order to change their collective mind.
 
Rooster1a2 said:
Damn.

Well that decision sure let them miss out during the past while when people wanted PMC/Federal 5.56 M193/M855 but there wasn't much supply. Hell, they could have probably sold to the US as well.

I wonder what sort of commercial sales volume they would need in order to change their collective mind.
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I would have to say upwards of 3 million rounds. For them to even start looking at this market.
 
cybershooters said:
So I got a reply from them, the relevant bit being:



I don't recall them ever selling ammo to the civilian market, but anyway the reason they don't do it now is because they're just not interested in it. Probably too small of a market and GD does tend to avoid civilian sales.

Bugger. I suppose we could nag them.
Click to expand...


Just curious, was that part of a blow-off reply to "Joe Canadian shooter" or did you have something in your signature that would precipitate the person writing that email to maybe double check within the executive office the companies' policy?
 
cybershooters said:
So I got a reply from them, the relevant bit being:

Many years ago, before General Dynamics acquired SNC Tec (now General Dynamics-OTS Canada), the company had a small arms division (called IVI at the time) that did sell commercial ammunition to the civilian market. However in the early ‘90’s, General Dynamics decided to concentrate solely on military and police markets. Our operations are no longer setup to support commercial retail sales and there are no plans to do so in the foreseeable future.
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I don't recall them ever selling ammo to the civilian market, but anyway the reason they don't do it now is because they're just not interested in it. Probably too small of a market and GD does tend to avoid civilian sales.

Bugger. I suppose we could nag them.
Click to expand...

I did a small amount of research last year on the privatization of Canadian Crown Corporations... of which, included Canadian Arsenals Limited. Now my research was quite superficial, as I was concerned with other matters. However, some of the info I found is consistent with those made by members in this thread.

After WWII, Canadian Arsenals Limited was created as a Crown Corporation to maintain R&D and industrial capacity of military arms and equipment. One of the main reasons this needed to be done was because these industries had no civilian commercial value immediately after the war. Our government believed at least some capability should be preserved. One of the divisions of CAL was the Dominion Arsenals Val Rose plant at Valcartier.

Privatization of Canada's small arms ammo production actually began in the mid-1960s. Around 1967 a group of private investors acquired the Val Rose plant, but the government retained ownership of the land. Although IVI remained the sole source of military ammunition in Canada, it also produced ammunition for commercial purposes. It was the case until 1980 when SNC acquired IVI and purchased the land from the Government of Canada. At the time, SNC was focused on making a steady income by supplying the Canadian military, while expanding into the export market. It had little interest in the small, Canadian civilian market, but apparently continued to produce sporting ammunition for shotguns and rifles. Around 1988, SNC abandoned the sporting line when it proved unprofitable. SNC later sold its small arms ammunition business to General Dynamics in 2006/07, when the value of that business peaked from overseas conflicts.

So while IVI and SNC did have some sporting ammunition products, I'm not sure they ever sold to civilians ammunition manufactured for military purposes. Nor do I know if there's any specific law or regulation prohibiting the sale of ammunition manufactured for military purposes for civilian consumption. If such a limitation exists, it may not even be one in law, but may be written in the supply agreement made by the producer with the Government of Canada. It is possible that IVI ammunition (from IVI and SNC periods) made their way to civilians indirectly through military surplus or not-so-legit-methods.

Even if there are no legal or contractual CANADIAN restrictions limiting General Dynamics' sale of ammunition manufactured for military purposes, we all know about ITAR on the side of the United States. ITAR is written so broadly that it might restrict General Dynamics from selling the ammunition. Depending on how the company is set up, it may be able to get around ITAR issues. I think Colt Canada has manged something similar. The question is whether General Dynamics has any incentive to find ways to sell C77 from the Canadian production line to civilians? We all know that the answer to that question is: probably not.
 
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beltfed said:
Just curious, was that part of a blow-off reply to "Joe Canadian shooter" or did you have something in your signature that would precipitate the person writing that email to maybe double check within the executive office the companies' policy?
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It was just a simple e-mail and a simple reply, I did e-mail back and ask if there was anyone in management we could write to.
 
FPembleton said:
ITAR is written so broadly that it might restrict General Dynamics from selling the ammunition.
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It's only an export licence application and clearly they have a dept. that does that all the time, so I don't think that is a big problem. All kinds of US-made ammunition is exported to Canada so I can't see the issue with exporting technology, i.e. small arms ammunition, given that it never even leaves the country of manufacture.

Perhaps FN has a licensing agreement with them that prevents civilian sales, but ATK sells tons of SS109 to civilians as does RG and other companies, worst case scenario they make the bullet without the penetrator tip.

I think it's just basically GD policy not to sell to civilians, they're a military contractor.
 
mikethebike said:
97% of the people on CGN would rather buy Chinese crap ammo and rifles than buy north american & european made quality goods, and brag about it with pictures (lookie at all the norinco ammo I bought!). Therein lies the problem.

And then people like me who don't buy Chinese crap are called fanboys and elitists by everyone here.
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When it's all you can get, it's what you buy.
 
cybershooters said:
So I got a reply from them, the relevant bit being:



I don't recall them ever selling ammo to the civilian market, but anyway the reason they don't do it now is because they're just not interested in it. Probably too small of a market and GD does tend to avoid civilian sales.

Bugger. I suppose we could nag them.
Click to expand...

Every Co-Op in the land used it have IVI ammunition growing up.

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Gunnerlove said:
And the DCRA/PRAs used to have piles of it. Then they stopped caring about Service Rifle.
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I remember those days. "Free" ammo and then DND decided, I believe in the early 90's, that they couldn't afford to supply the DCRA and PRAs any more. That was the end of DND supplied IVI in 308 and 5.56. The ORA still has a very good and well attended service rifle program. I don't know about the other PRAs but I doubt that it is because they can no longer get free DND supplied ammo.
 
Gunnerlove said:
And the DCRA/PRAs used to have piles of it. Then they stopped caring about Service Rifle.
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Years ago when I shot DCRA it cost $10.00 a year to join and you also had to join the reserves, attending a minimum of 1 parade a year which everyone did. The ammo was free, FN and ammo when you wanted, but the real bonus was free flights. One of the shooters was a airforce flying instructor so he would take a Beech 18/student on a weekend training mission and we would fill the back with shooters and equipment.

I was always the youngest shooter and got the best steak when we stayed on military bases. Gotta love the cooks, great guys.

Those WERE the days.
 
enfield303t said:
Years ago when I shot DCRA it cost $10.00 a year to join and you also had to join the reserves, attending a minimum of 1 parade a year which everyone did. The ammo was free, FN and ammo when you wanted, but the real bonus was free flights. One of the shooters was a airforce flying instructor so he would take a Beech 18/student on a weekend training mission and we would fill the back with shooters and equipment.

I was always the youngest shooter and got the best steak when we stayed on military bases. Gotta love the cooks, great guys.

Those WERE the days.
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Wow! the times sure have changed!!!
Holy...
 
I remember those days. "Free" ammo and then DND decided, I believe in the early 90's, that they couldn't afford to supply the DCRA and PRAs any more. That was the end of DND supplied IVI in 308 and 5.56.
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I was on a cadet rifle team in the mid 1980's and we used to shoot the FNC1 often. It was not easy to get on the team but I really enjoyed it. Ammo supply did not seem to be an issue, but the officers probably had to fill out a ton of paperwork! When I joined the CF and the FN's went away I noticed cadet's were not using the C7 like we used to use the FN's. With the new family of small arms things seemed to change dramatically with regards to cadet shooting. Now I understand even the No 7's are gone and shooting is not what it used to be. These changes over 20 years are unfortunate. It is a shame youth in Canada are discouraged from the shooting sports in the cadet programs.
 
RifleDude said:
I remember those days. "Free" ammo and then DND decided, I believe in the early 90's, that they couldn't afford to supply the DCRA and PRAs any more. That was the end of DND supplied IVI in 308 and 5.56. The ORA still has a very good and well attended service rifle program. I don't know about the other PRAs but I doubt that it is because they can no longer get free DND supplied ammo.
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It wasn't about not being able to afford it (although in the dark days of the 90's, that was certainly a part of it) someone in the CoC had a look at the return for investment....

I took Stan Frost up on this once when I was in Canada House, as he was bemoaning the situation described above. He was complaining about the loss of free flights, loss of free ammo, loss of free targets, etc etc etc that he grew up with in the DCRA. (At the time, he was the president of the DCRA I think....)

I asked him when the last time was that he had coached a military shooter.

He started talking about coaching cadets, and I stopped him (rather abruptly) and said, "No, an actual soldier, sailor or airman in the regular forces or the reserves"

His response was "I have never done that."

My response was "That's why your money pit dried up."

In his 40 years of involvement with the DCRA, the thousands and thousands of rounds fired, the free plane rides, the free range time, the free....you name it....he had only ever USED the system, he had never once thought about giving back to it.

That's why the DCRA and PRA's got themselves cut off from military support.

The military gave and gave and gave....and got....NOTHING.

We were damned well within our rights to cut off the DCRA, and for Mr. Frost to have been still bemoaning that 15 years after the support was cut off indicates that he didn't understand why. The fact that he was the head of the DCRA at the time speaks volumes about why the Service Conditions portion of the DCRA is in the state it is.

I haven't spoken with Stan since then, and I have a feeling that he didn't like me yanking the rug out from under his opinions.

NS
 
IIRC from my BMQ, the reason that Canada doesn't surplus anything out anymore is because of the ITAR agreement with the US. Anything that is remotely military connected is classified as a controlled good and cannot be released to the public. There are exceptions, such as if a truck used by the military was "demilitarized" in a certain way, but this is rare
 
mrbeil said:
IIRC from my BMQ, the reason that Canada doesn't surplus anything out anymore is because of the ITAR agreement with the US. Anything that is remotely military connected is classified as a controlled good and cannot be released to the public. There are exceptions, such as if a truck used by the military was "demilitarized" in a certain way, but this is rare
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In keeping with the context of this thread.... Canadian ball ammo (IVI), produced in Canada, is not ITAR. At the very least, it would be considered Canadian origin controlled goods (subject to CTAT)

However, if the ammo were leaving the possession of DND, to civilian entities like shooting clubs, legally, it would be subject to controlled goods regulations, and the organization would have to be registered with the Controlled Goods Directorate, just to start. (Not likely ever going to happen again IMHO)

A lot of people throw around "ITAR" without knowing what it means.

ITAR governs the use/disposition of American origin defense technology, and any defence technology being exported from the US or retransferred to a third party.

ITAR is not Canadian law, it is American law that Canada graciously agrees to follow in order to play with the big boys.
 
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