Can Anyone Confirm the use of M1A1 Thompson on the Eastern Front?
- Thread starter skirsons
- Start date
There was not much of a lend-lease agreement
between the US and USSR.
^^^^^^
That's an urban legend.
The reality is that the Deghtyarev 27
is very well engineered for (and build around)
the 7.62x54 rimmed Russian cartridge. That is, not only the bolt,
but the magazine, the feeding and extraction mechanism, etc, were
designed for the rimmed cartridge.
I would like to see one with the conversion for the 8 Mauser cartridge
or for any other rimless cartridge (I heard stories about conversions
to 30-06, 308, etc). I am not saying it is impossible, but it is a b!tch,
and very un-likely to be done in an ad-hoc shop by the front line.
That goes to show how the BS rumors and urban legends are made.
That one I believe it,
it is a much easier conversion,
it has been done many times.
However it is much easier to carry and use a real PPSh,
knowing that there was enough ammo around.
Another urban legend.
Yes, there were some, but what exactly was "considerable"?
No, they didn't.
(If it was, that's a guaranteed receipe for getting it stolen or missing,
especially in the eastern armies).
Like you, long time ago I was suckered into
chasing evidence of another legend I heard:
the 1911 "Russian" contracts.
Allegedly, there was a contract (or two) of few hundred 1911's.
Apparently there were 2 deliveries in 1917.
Although I could not find one single picture or document to say
this was real, at one moment I believed it.
After that, allegedly, there were subsequent contracts (deliveries)
in 1930(?), 1931 and 1935(?).
Again, I didn't see one single pic, but internet bullsh!ters swear it is true.
They say they were engraved as such
plus some Russian logo (engraved by Colt).
It seems that the value of one of these
is several thousands $'s in the West,
but nobody can produce a pic.
However, on internet I found the pic of at least one 1911
(made by Colt in late 1920's)
with some Russian lettering (apparently not engraved by Colt),
but the area of engraving is so worn, very little can be read.
It was originally in 45 ACP but it was
converted (allegedly by Russians) to 7.62x25.
The quality of the conversion (barrel-fitting) is very good.
The mag was not original, IIRC.
It is part of a collection in US.
Yeah, so much for the availability of the 45 ACP in USSR.
It doesn't matter how much ammo US could pump in USSR, because
the supply chain (and everything else related to logistics
in the conditions of the hell that was in USSR during the war),
made the use of Thompson a very un-likely possibility.
For many German front-liners,
"Tommy" was an acronym for anything SMG in
other armies' hands, including Sten, Suomi, etc.
BTW, I like another BS legend about the stuff supplied by US to USSR:
Some leftover Winchesters (or whatevers) chambered in 7.62x54R
that US tried to give as anti-revolutionary aid to the Imperial White Army
some 25-30 years earlier,
but they couldn't deliver all of them during the Revolution,
and they still had some in the US warehouses
at the beginning of ww2. LMFAO
Sorry for the hi-jack.
Last edited:
The Soviet Union's nickname for the M4 medium tank was Emcha because the open-topped figure 4 resembled the Cyrillic letter che or cha (Ч ).
A total of 4,102 M4A2 medium tanks were sent to the U.S.S.R. under Lend-Lease. Of these 2,007 were equipped with the 75 mm gun, and 2,095 carried the 76 mm gun. The total number of Sherman tanks sent to the U.S.S.R. under Lend-Lease represented 18.6 percent of all Lend-Lease Shermans.[8]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease_Sherman_tanks
Supply efforts
The Allies delivered all manner of materiel to the Soviets, from Studebaker US6 trucks to American B-24 bombers. Most supplies in the corridor arrived by ship at Persian Gulf ports, and then were carried north by railway or in truck convoys. Some goods were reloaded onto ships to cross the Caspian Sea, and others continued by truck.
The United States Army forces in the corridor were originally under the Iran-Iraq Service Command - later renamed the Persian Gulf Service Command (PGSC). This was the successor to the original United States Military Iranian Mission, which had been put in place to deliver Lend-Lease supplies before the United States had entered the World War. The mission was originally commanded by Col. Don G. Shingler, who was then replaced late in 1942 by Brig. Gen. Donald H. Connolly. Both the Iran-Iraq Service Command and the PGSC were subordinate to the U.S. Army Forces in the Middle East (USAFIME). PGSC was eventually renamed simply the Persian Gulf Command.
[edit] Statistics
The Allied supply efforts were enormous. The Americans alone delivered 175.5 million long tons (178.3 million metric tonnes) to the Soviets during the war, via numerous routes, including Arctic convoys of World War II to the ports of Murmansk and Archangelsk. Also, Soviet shipping carried supplies from the west coast of the United States and Canada to Vladivostok in the Far East, since the Soviet Union was not at war with Japan at that time (not until August 1945). The Persian Corridor was the route for 4,159,117 long tons (4,225,858 metric tonnes) of this cargo. However, this was not the only American contribution via the Persian Corridor - and now to mention the contributions of all the other Allies like Great Britain, British India, South Africa, British East Africa, Australia, Bahrain and numerous other nations, colonies, and protectorates the of Allied nations. All told, about 7,900,000 long tons (8,000,000 metric tonnes) of shipborne cargo from Allied sources were unloaded in the Corridor, most of it bound for Russia - but some of it for British forces under the Middle East Command, or for the Iranian economy, which was sustaining the influx of tens of thousands of foreign troops and Polish refugees. Also, supplies were needed for the development of new transportation and logistics facilities in Persia and in the Soviet Union. The tonnage figure does not include transfers of warplanes via Persia, nor cargo delivered by air, which amounted to several millions of tons more[citation needed].
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Corridor
18.6% of Sherman production is not a small amount, Russian photographers were ordered to minimize the photograpy of lend lease equipment due to the propaganda image that Stalin wanted to portray.
A total of 4,102 M4A2 medium tanks were sent to the U.S.S.R. under Lend-Lease. Of these 2,007 were equipped with the 75 mm gun, and 2,095 carried the 76 mm gun. The total number of Sherman tanks sent to the U.S.S.R. under Lend-Lease represented 18.6 percent of all Lend-Lease Shermans.[8]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease_Sherman_tanks
Supply efforts
The Allies delivered all manner of materiel to the Soviets, from Studebaker US6 trucks to American B-24 bombers. Most supplies in the corridor arrived by ship at Persian Gulf ports, and then were carried north by railway or in truck convoys. Some goods were reloaded onto ships to cross the Caspian Sea, and others continued by truck.
The United States Army forces in the corridor were originally under the Iran-Iraq Service Command - later renamed the Persian Gulf Service Command (PGSC). This was the successor to the original United States Military Iranian Mission, which had been put in place to deliver Lend-Lease supplies before the United States had entered the World War. The mission was originally commanded by Col. Don G. Shingler, who was then replaced late in 1942 by Brig. Gen. Donald H. Connolly. Both the Iran-Iraq Service Command and the PGSC were subordinate to the U.S. Army Forces in the Middle East (USAFIME). PGSC was eventually renamed simply the Persian Gulf Command.
[edit] Statistics
The Allied supply efforts were enormous. The Americans alone delivered 175.5 million long tons (178.3 million metric tonnes) to the Soviets during the war, via numerous routes, including Arctic convoys of World War II to the ports of Murmansk and Archangelsk. Also, Soviet shipping carried supplies from the west coast of the United States and Canada to Vladivostok in the Far East, since the Soviet Union was not at war with Japan at that time (not until August 1945). The Persian Corridor was the route for 4,159,117 long tons (4,225,858 metric tonnes) of this cargo. However, this was not the only American contribution via the Persian Corridor - and now to mention the contributions of all the other Allies like Great Britain, British India, South Africa, British East Africa, Australia, Bahrain and numerous other nations, colonies, and protectorates the of Allied nations. All told, about 7,900,000 long tons (8,000,000 metric tonnes) of shipborne cargo from Allied sources were unloaded in the Corridor, most of it bound for Russia - but some of it for British forces under the Middle East Command, or for the Iranian economy, which was sustaining the influx of tens of thousands of foreign troops and Polish refugees. Also, supplies were needed for the development of new transportation and logistics facilities in Persia and in the Soviet Union. The tonnage figure does not include transfers of warplanes via Persia, nor cargo delivered by air, which amounted to several millions of tons more[citation needed].
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Corridor
18.6% of Sherman production is not a small amount, Russian photographers were ordered to minimize the photograpy of lend lease equipment due to the propaganda image that Stalin wanted to portray.
I can't wait.
But: in my previous post I didn't stress enough the diference
between the 2 types of contracts:
1. the 1917 ones were allegedly destined for the Tsarist White Army.
Don't forget US was engaged in a war then.
Russia was boiling (internally) increasingly showing signs that
that they want to reach
a separate peace with Germany (Austria, Hungary, whatever).
It's said that some of these tsarist 1911's
found their way into the following commie regime's hands,
who allegedly obliterated (some of the) original markings,
and marked them with commie signs, and "CEKA", and after that "NKVD".
2. The subsequent contracts were destined for the Communist Russia.
Very little info is to be found about their markings or who marked them,
but the real 1911 I found a pic of and said about in my previous post
is (allegedly) one of those (judging after the manuf year).
As I said, I'm waiting for your pic(s).
If you say you scan from a book, maybe you ca scan as well
the text with info (if any) if it's not a biggie. Thx.
There was no "lend lease" agreement between US and USSR.
It was not called "lend-lease"
regardless of the fact that history books want to call it as such.
I have on my PC somewhere a photo of Soviet naval infantry issued with Thompsons and a Bazooka. I'm sure that the tanks issued with Thompsons would also have been issued with a minimum amount of ammunition. Not enough for front line infantry but plenty for the crew forced to bail out, or to capture surrendering Germans.
I have also read an account of an American POW liberated by the Russians in East Germany. The Russians were driving American APCs equiped with Browning machine guns which they had ammunition for (the gunner was happy to show off his gun and spray nearby houses with it). Plus the American and British planes supplied would have needed ammunition. So there must have been at least basic supply lines in place.
Another thing to keep in mind, is that every non-standard weapon issued to non-essential support troops and troops away from the front, is a standard weapon that can be issued to front line troops where logistics are essential.
I have also read an account of an American POW liberated by the Russians in East Germany. The Russians were driving American APCs equiped with Browning machine guns which they had ammunition for (the gunner was happy to show off his gun and spray nearby houses with it). Plus the American and British planes supplied would have needed ammunition. So there must have been at least basic supply lines in place.
Another thing to keep in mind, is that every non-standard weapon issued to non-essential support troops and troops away from the front, is a standard weapon that can be issued to front line troops where logistics are essential.
Anyone have any more information on this? The Thompson m1928 I just purchased is one of the ex-Russian service guns. A friend got a M1 variant in the same shippment and there were M1A1s available as well.
All came out of the ex-Soviet Union. My gun while miss-matched and having some rust pitting from poor storage is essentially un-fired.
My friend believes that his has seen very little use as well.
All came out of the ex-Soviet Union. My gun while miss-matched and having some rust pitting from poor storage is essentially un-fired.
My friend believes that his has seen very little use as well.
..bas.... Just a thought, but could the guns have been originally captured from the American Forces, by the Germans, then subsequently "captured" (Weapons Dump behind the lines ? ) by the Russian's or even a dump, over- run by the advancing Red Army ? ..... Similar to the RC M98s perhaps ? .... David K .... 
..bas.... Just a thought, but could the guns have been originally captured from the American Forces, by the Germans, then subsequently "captured" (Weapons Dump behind the lines ? ) by the Russian's or even a dump, over- run by the advancing Red Army ? ..... Similar to the RC M98s perhaps ? .... David K ....
Unlikely as there are too many of them. Also any that would have been captured from the Western Allies would have stayed in the west. It would be pointless to ship them all the way east just for storage.
rchmontreal
CGN Regular
- Location
- Toronto, Ontario
Here is a photo taken in the Ukraine from the summer of 1942. It shows Soviet tankers equipped with Lend-Lease M3A1 Stuart light tanks. The crews are using a M28A1 Thompson .45ACP SMG's with a 50 round drum magazine, and turret mounted belt fed Browning GPMG's in 30'06. The mg on the left appears to be a M1919A4, the other an M37 Tank mg.
Notice the use of the supplied M38 tank helmets.
Ref: "The Red Army of the Great Patriotic War 1941 - 45" by S. Zaloga, 1989 Osprey Publishing.
The impact of such weapons in limited numbers and of odd caliber to the Soviet system, would have been minimal. However, use of American supplied trucks and jeeps played a significant role in the Red Army's victory.
Notice the use of the supplied M38 tank helmets.
Ref: "The Red Army of the Great Patriotic War 1941 - 45" by S. Zaloga, 1989 Osprey Publishing.
The impact of such weapons in limited numbers and of odd caliber to the Soviet system, would have been minimal. However, use of American supplied trucks and jeeps played a significant role in the Red Army's victory.
Great find!Here is a photo taken in the Ukraine from the summer of 1942. It shows Soviet tankers equipped with Lend-Lease M3A1 Stuart light tanks. The crews are using a M28A1 Thompson .45ACP SMG's with a 50 round drum magazine, and turret mounted belt fed Browning GPMG's in 30'06. The mg on the left appears to be a M1919A4, the other an M37 Tank mg.
Notice the use of the supplied M38 tank helmets.
Ref: "The Red Army of the Great Patriotic War 1941 - 45" by S. Zaloga, 1989 Osprey Publishing.
The impact of such weapons in limited numbers and of odd caliber to the Soviet system, would have been minimal. However, use of American supplied trucks and jeeps played a significant role in the Red Army's victory.
..bas.... Just a thought, but could the guns have been originally captured from the American Forces, by the Germans, then subsequently "captured" (Weapons Dump behind the lines ? ) by the Russian's or even a dump, over- run by the advancing Red Army ? ..... Similar to the RC M98s perhaps ? .... David K ....
+1
The use of the other side's guns/ammo by both sides in WWII is well documented in the period literature.
NAA.
Solzhenitsyn specifically mentions several times throughout his "Gulag Archipelago" series convoy guards and camp guards being armed with Tommy guns. As the books were written in the 1960s, he may have had an idea of what a "Tommy gun" would mean to Western readers (from what I understand, the series was never meant to be published or ready in the USSR); that said, he does not go into specifics.
