Can Remington 700 repeater beat 1/2 MOA

After 3 years of struggling to improve my groups I can now look back at my old 1/2" targets and really appreciate that I was either very lucky or there was nothing wrong in the first place.

In 3 years of trying quite a range of bullets and powders and setup etc, etc my gains have been small. Granted I'm probably teets on a bull when it comes to shooting but I do now believe a 1/2" grouping factory barrel is nothing to be sneezed at.
 
Mystic Precision said:
I'm with MP. If I spent all that money on a rig for precision shooting and it would only shoot 1/2 min at shorter distances given the best possible chance of success, I would be not happy.

I spin on both Shilen and Mcgowen prefit barrels on my various Savage actions and get well under 1/2 min. In fact, shooting in the 1's and 2's is not uncommon at 200yds with a precision chambering and the usual work up.
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That's a pretty bold statement, don't you think? .1's & .2's AT 200 yds. by slapping on a pre-fit barrel? You make it sound so very simple. lol. That makes benchrest champions out of every one of your customers, right? ;)

Personally, I don't think it's that "common" at all to have that kind of performance that you suggest is easily obtainable. I've got a number of custom rifles and know many others who do and I don't hear them making these kinds of claims.

I guess my sig line says it all.
 
5rds groups in the 2's isn't going to win you too many BR matches these days but it is plenty accurate for F class.

And yes, the barrels when new are shooting to this level. yes, I even get some groups in the 1's - dead calm day shooting.

I have a 6PPC barrel that I have only just started working on but intial groups at 100yds show alot of promise. no use telling you what I have shot as that would just make you mad.

I have posted videos and numerous pics of my shooting over the years.

This season I got lucky and was able to shoot in some really really calm or very steady air at 300m and 500m. There are videos of these groups on the Berger 90gr VLD posts and in my dealer forum for the bipod I am developing.

5 shots into 1" at 500m has to be good for something - and you can hear that it wasn't calm either. the air was super steady making my job pretty straightforward. One of my better shooting days I would say.

The rifles will do the job, the shooter, well, I am a long ways from being a 1/4 min wind reader ALL THE TIME. But I am working on it.

AND WIND READING IS WHAT WINS MATCHES. Unless you are suggesting the SR BR is all about the equipment and if you have a hummer rifle, you can just shoot whenever, however?

I am unsure if you have ever tried a Savage and a quality prefit barrel. There are many many rifles built by dozens of shooters all over the world that are getting 1/4 min groups.

Believe them, don't believe them. One hero group, an average. The data is out there for the looking. And the exploding sales for Savage has to be a pretty good indicator of a growing number of very happy customers.

Got a customer that seems to be winning his fair share of SR BR Score shooting. Uses a 30Br Shilen.

Another has posted test groups at 100yds in the 1's and even 0's using a factory Savage 6BR. Believe it, don't believe it. The shooter has posted this a few times.

Team Savage using "factory rifles" (but I wonder how many factory rifles they went through?) seem to be winning on a global scale against all manner of gear. Sure, these shooters are some of the best in the world too but if their rigs didn't work, they wouldn't do well.

Give it a try. May just surprise you.

YMMV.

Jerry
 
Oh no! I had almost accepted my inadequacy.
I got happy with my 10 shot groups a bit under an inch at 200 yards. I have a 223 shilen barrel. Thanks Jerry. :)

Should I really be shooting in the .1s and .2s. Thats never going to happen for me. :D
 
Jerry,

This wasn't meant as a slight towards you and I don't question your word. I was just pointing out that the level of accuracy being mentioned isn't common or routine. Sure, there are any number of custom rifles out there that will perform to the level you suggest. That's not in disagreement.

Hell, I've shot 1/4 MOA (5) shot groups at 200 yds. before. In fact, I had done so just yesterday. However, that was 1 group out of the 7 that I shot for the day. I certainly wouldn't claim that I could do so "all day long" or anything like that.

I like the .30 cal. Shilen I bought from you but the accuracy is absolutely nothing to write home about so far. It's no fault of the barrel, though. The .300 AAC Blackout (very similar to .300 Whisper) I chambered the rifle for isn't exactly considered a benchrest cartridge and loading for it has been somewhat of a challenge.

Oh, and I WILL one day do a Savage build. In fact, if you get a firearms business license and start selling Savages, I'll buy one from you and have you install a pre-fit for me.

Mystic Precision said:
5rds groups in the 2's isn't going to win you too many BR matches these days but it is plenty accurate for F class.

And yes, the barrels when new are shooting to this level. yes, I even get some groups in the 1's - dead calm day shooting.

I have a 6PPC barrel that I have only just started working on but intial groups at 100yds show alot of promise. no use telling you what I have shot as that would just make you mad.

I have posted videos and numerous pics of my shooting over the years.

This season I got lucky and was able to shoot in some really really calm or very steady air at 300m and 500m. There are videos of these groups on the Berger 90gr VLD posts and in my dealer forum for the bipod I am developing.

5 shots into 1" at 500m has to be good for something - and you can hear that it wasn't calm either. the air was super steady making my job pretty straightforward. One of my better shooting days I would say.

The rifles will do the job, the shooter, well, I am a long ways from being a 1/4 min wind reader ALL THE TIME. But I am working on it.

AND WIND READING IS WHAT WINS MATCHES. Unless you are suggesting the SR BR is all about the equipment and if you have a hummer rifle, you can just shoot whenever, however?

I am unsure if you have ever tried a Savage and a quality prefit barrel. There are many many rifles built by dozens of shooters all over the world that are getting 1/4 min groups.

Believe them, don't believe them. One hero group, an average. The data is out there for the looking. And the exploding sales for Savage has to be a pretty good indicator of a growing number of very happy customers.

Got a customer that seems to be winning his fair share of SR BR Score shooting. Uses a 30Br Shilen.

Another has posted test groups at 100yds in the 1's and even 0's using a factory Savage 6BR. Believe it, don't believe it. The shooter has posted this a few times.

Team Savage using "factory rifles" (but I wonder how many factory rifles they went through?) seem to be winning on a global scale against all manner of gear. Sure, these shooters are some of the best in the world too but if their rigs didn't work, they wouldn't do well.

Give it a try. May just surprise you.

YMMV.

Jerry
Click to expand...
 
I sit

back and read this thread as a relative NEW COMMER to the world of Short Range Bench Rest.

What can I say? Not much. I do not have the experience of Jerry when it comes to rounds down range or a lot of other guys on this forum. Do I have the answers or proof? No.

What I will tell you is go ask this question at Benchrest Central and you will get ##### slapped into tommorrow.

The bottom line is NONE of these so called groups mean anything unless shot in match situations under match time constraints. You can tell me all you want thtat a Rem 700 or a Savage will keep up with the best custom astion, FORGET IT PERIOD.

There are next to NO people on this forum who know about Short Range Benchrest and what it takes to be a proven winner. We are non existant in Canada and trying to grow but NO one is willing to put up there Rem 700 or Savage up against our Custom actions which are not even that great. Yes I said it not even that great. You want a hummer of an action or rifle, order an action and send it to a top notch BR gunsmith to have it reworked into a winner. Yes you read that right, have it reworked into a winner. Almost NON of the top BR shooters in the US have an aftermarket action that is totally stock. There is a LOT more work involved in it than the average shooter knows. You want to learn what it takes, attend a MAJOR BR match in the US like the Super shoot, NBRSA or IBS nationals and you will have your eyes opened up.

Just because you have a BAT, Stiller, Kelby, Farley, Borden, etc does not guarantee you will shoot .1's.....

Now these are facts.

You will never convince this Bench Rest shooter that the Rem 700 or Savage is capable of Short Range accuracy in this day and age.

Take it or leave it. This is an opinion from someone who eats breathes and sleeps short range.

CYCBB
 
"all day long" if I happen to have a tunnel somewhere. No, these groups are shot under the most ideal conditions I can muster.

If I could read the wind with an equal level of accuracy as my rifles, I would be winning far more matches.

At the Westerns this year, I would be high fiving if I hit a 2 MOA target. Brutal winds.... at least for a newbie at that range.

Wind will always be a limiting factor and that is a good thing. If this sport ever got to be just an equipment race, I would quit.

No plans to sell Savages or rifles commerically any time soon. Way too much hassle. There are lots of sales going on now so picking up any donor should be straight forward.

That whisper sounds like a lot of fun even if it isn't a BR type cartridge. Very interesting powder tuning for subsonic flight. Never spent much time doing it so might be another area to play with down the road.

Look for more new stuff offered in my dealer forum and website in the coming weeks. Hoping to book my first shipment for new toys in the next day.

Jerry
 
CYCBB, different tools for different games. Different tech too.

I sincerely doubt there is any SR BR shooter that will expect to go 150rds without cleaning their barrel AND still offer match winning accuracy? Is there even a match that would allow you to shoot that much?

F class shooters do that all the time.

CAN a Savage or Rem be made to shoot BR type accuracy, yes. That was proven way the heck back in the time BUT is this ideal given how far the game has progressed.

Depends on the variant of the game. There is no denying the matches won by that shooter of the Shilen Savage 30BR. Was this against the best gear and shooters in the world? Who knows but it was certainly against other shooters that weren't trying to miss.

There are quirks in every shooting sport that favors certain tech. I am an F class shooter and build rigs catering to this game. This game has very specific needs not shared with any BR game so there is no point in comparing how each would perform in the others arena.

Be like me saying a 6PPC is not accurate cause it can't hold the V bull at 1000yds in the winds. That is silly. All that PPC tech is developed to do one thing and one thing only.

Whether you agree or not, F class rifles have evolved and embrace many of the positives developed in various BR disciplines. There are no shortage that will shoot 1/4 min at 200yds. Seeing some groups in the 1's at 100yds too

Is that modern SR BR standards? NOPE but it is pretty darn good and many use generic Rem and Savage rifles.

YMMV.

Jerry
 
I think we have to look at the question asked in the start of the thread. "Can Remington 700 repeater beat 1/2 MOA?" The answer is YES! Will all REM 700 's do it? Absolutely not.

Now the question seems to be morphing into can anyone with a REM 700 shoot .5 or better or will a factory gun beat a highly customized rigg? Again, absolutely not! Wind, loads and a million other variables will be working against the shooter and forcing him/her to use their skill/knowledge to get the most out of their guns be it at a bench rest shoot, long range shoot or plinking in a field with buddies. Then you have the custom guns where the build is designed to remove the small imperfections that cause a gun to be mechanically less of a shooter.

The reality is, some factory guns are quite capable of doing .5 or better. I think the perentage of those that can vs those that can't are much lower but they still exist. Some custom rigs are capable of .2 or better. Some very custom riggs are going to do even better. That said, sometimes you get lucky and find a gun that shoots way better than it's average counter part. That doesn't guarantee in the hands of everyone that gun will perform the same.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I have REM 700 with factory everything that will shoot better than the average factory Remington. I have shot many groups in perfect conditions under .5 moa and I am an average shooter at best and am still learning to reload quality ammo. In the right hands, I believe this gun can shoot better than .5 all day long if the person with it had good reloading and shooting skills.

To get a real good factory shooter seems to be hit or miss. You can increase your odds by going custom or even super custom. As cycbb486 mentioned, pressure from a competition can make or break a shooter. Jerry has pointed out that wind can do the same. Those are all shooter variables. My 8 year old can turn a .2 gun into a minute of landfill rifle with ease. That doesn't mean the gun is not a .2 moa gun. It means she is a 36.0 moa shooter.

It is like anything out there. How much time, money and effort are you willing to put into it? If you have a factory gun and do everything you can to find it's true potential (bedding, reloading, good optics etc...) and it shoots .5 or better , giddy up. If not, then are you willing to go to the next step? Custom pipe, action yadda yadda yadda. If that doesn't fill your cornflakes bowl, dive deaper into the rabbit hole and see how good it gets.

Back to the original question. I believe the answer is yes. Being a gambling man though, I am not sure the odds are stacked in your favour until you start tossing some green (or in Canada red/blue/brown) at it.

my 2 cents worth.

Now someone needs to start a thread about how many shooters are capable of .5 moa or better. Now that would be an interesting and heated read;)
 
Reading this thread and others like it and doing a fair bit of shooting myself, I am drawn to certain conclusions:

A factory Remy or Savage can shoot 1/2 MOA but that is the exception and not the rule.

Customising a Remy or Savage will increase the probability of it being a consistent 1/2 MOA rifle but will not guarantee that.

Adding a custom receiver will further improve the chances of the rifle being 1/2 MOA or better.

The rifle is only one of four important elements : rifle, ammo, glass and shooter.

Weather conditions make a big difference. Two weekends ago I shot 74/75 with 10V's at 500m - not earth-shattering and many of you can do it - now add in a twisting wind that is gusting and see that score nose dive. Be happy then to walk away with a 69 4V's and hope your panties are still unsoiled :)

Making comparisons across shooting disciplines is pretty pointless - for sure, a SR BR gun shooting in the .1"s will be more accurate than a custom tactical rig which may, and I say may, do .5 but switch the game to a Tac Rifle match and see which rifle will be in the winners circle. It's like saying a F1 racer is faster than a rally car and so it is better. Let's see the F1 go off-road and figure how many hundred yards it will get before it falls apart. It really is a dumb comparison.

Most people lie about the groups they shoot or, as a previous poster mentions, cherry pick the one spectacular group and claims it as a regular event. People who frequent this forum are part of a very, very, small group of shooters who really can do 1/2 MOA or better. Most shooters I see ( and I shoot about 70 times a year at 3 different clubs so I see a LOT of shooters ) simply cannot shoot 1/2 MOA. Fact - No matter what rifle used.


Thoughts ?
 
Tomochan said:
Reading this thread and others like it and doing a fair bit of shooting myself, I am drawn to certain conclusions:

Most people lie about the groups they shoot or, as a previous poster mentions, cherry pick the one spectacular group and claims it as a regular event. People who frequent this forum are part of a very, very, small group of shooters who really can do 1/2 MOA or better. Most shooters I see ( and I shoot about 70 times a year at 3 different clubs so I see a LOT of shooters ) simply cannot shoot 1/2 MOA. Fact - No matter what rifle used.
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Precisely. I totally agree.
 
:stirthepot2: and you might even be able to achieve sub 1/2 with a quote "FUBAR" precision barrel:D Yes extremely fun....and even better when Jerry gets going:D

IMO, we play and pay for the ability to achieve advances of 1/10 moa with all the finickyness, ritylan driven, obsessive compulsive, details oriented minutia. You got a 1/2 MOA gun:eek:.....then just punch some more paper my friend.
 
Tomochan said:
Most people lie about the groups they shoot or, as a previous poster mentions, cherry pick the one spectacular group and claims it as a regular event. People who frequent this forum are part of a very, very, small group of shooters who really can do 1/2 MOA or better. Most shooters I see ( and I shoot about 70 times a year at 3 different clubs so I see a LOT of shooters ) simply cannot shoot 1/2 MOA. Fact - No matter what rifle used.


Thoughts ?
Click to expand...


This should be a sticky. More new guys could get on enjoying their shooting if they did not have unreal expectations.
 
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