I think that in any sport, equipment becomes a factor once you reach a certain skill level. If you get to the point where your gun is limiting you, upgrade. For example, I have a model 700 in 308. I upgraded the stock, but put what many consider mediocre glass on it. I can fairly consistently shoot well under 1" with it, with my run-of-the-mill handloads. But every outing, I get at least a few fliers that I know are my fault. Until I get that under control, I'm going to spend my money on practice.I feel I'm getting to the point where equipment will make enough of a difference to be worth it, but not just yet.
Can you buy decent clay scores?
- Thread starter CLydesdale1812
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I don't like comparing shooting rifles at stationary targets, to shooting clays with a shotgun. You don't aim a shotgun like you aim a rifle, and you don't need sub moa accuracy with a shotgun. You also don't use a rest to shoot clays, you swing the shotgun to lead the target. Even an accomplished benchrest shooter could not pick up a 2moa rifle and be competitive at benchrest shooting, but a good clays shooter can shoot clean rounds oftrap or skeet with a lower priced shotgun, if it fits him and functions reliably.
Agreed, they are apples and oranges. My point was more like give a 2 moa shooter a sub-MOA rifle, and he wont get the optimum performance out of it. Just like give Joe Driver an F1 car, and he won't get the most out of it. Same thing with a clay shooter. Give me a Stoeger Condor or a Perazzi, and you won't see much difference. But give a Perazzi to a champion shooter, and he or she will do better than with the Stoeger. At least that's my humble opinion.
I am a mediocre shotgun shot at best, but my father was a damn fine shot with the scattergun, be it on game or clay birds. Dad shot trap religiously he had a Charles Daly O/U trap gun that while not top of the line was a well made Miroku copy of Brownings Superposed, this was in the 1960s.
Dad's once told me that the way he looked at it was: "That it is better to spend $500 on the shotgun and $1,000 on the ammunition than the other way around". Please remember he started shooting trap in the 1960s when prices were quite a bit lower, and dad also reloaded shotgun shells. When dad died a few years back we cleared out thousands and thousands of empty shotgun hulls he'd collected for reloading. The local trap range closed in the late 70s or early 80s so he never got around to reloading them.
Dad's once told me that the way he looked at it was: "That it is better to spend $500 on the shotgun and $1,000 on the ammunition than the other way around". Please remember he started shooting trap in the 1960s when prices were quite a bit lower, and dad also reloaded shotgun shells. When dad died a few years back we cleared out thousands and thousands of empty shotgun hulls he'd collected for reloading. The local trap range closed in the late 70s or early 80s so he never got around to reloading them.
And what do you suppose would happen if that champion clay shooter shot a Parazzi that didn't fit him, and a Stoeger Condor that fit him perfectly? Which shotgun do you think that he would shoot higher scores with? As long as it functions properly, I would bet on the gun that fits him better. That being said, I won't own a Stoeger, my Citori shotguns are very reliable, and I shoot them as well as I shoot anything else.
the spank
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Confidence in your gear is of great importance as well in my opinion. If you have confidence in it you have one less thing on your mind during a shoot. Back in the day years ago wondering if I would get through a 200 target event with my 1100 Tournament Trap without a breakdown (it went through bolt forks like they were a surplus item!) was always a distraction. Eliminating that distraction helped eliminate another focus issue.
I would assume that if you're going to cough up several thousand shekels for a trap gun, you're going to get one that fits and functions properly. That same analogy would hold true of a poorly tuned F1 vs. a properly tuned Ford Focus. I guess my feeling is that if you have the talent and abilities, and spend enough time and money practising, there will come a point in time when the equipment impacts your results. However, not many people, in just about any sport, ever reach that point.
In the mid-60's, I was a comptetitive skier. Everyone used wooden skis, with a synthetic base. Waxing is what determined how well you did. Around 67 or 68, the first aluminum or fiberglass skis appeared. That year, they were banned from competition, because they cost something like $700 a pair - almost 4 months' salary for my Dad. The following year, they were allowed. No matter how good you were, you could not win against a skier using the new skis. But a newbie skier would never have been able to win agasint one of us on wooden skis, regardless of the equipment they used.
Your ski analogy is even worse than comparing rifles to shotguns. People have won trap and skeet shoots, shooting older, much lower cost shotguns than other skilled shooters using very expensive, much newer shotguns. The clays sports are not decided by technology. Yes the gun must fit, and it must be reliable, but these shoots are determined by the skill of the shooter, and not by technology..
I guess we'll just have to agree that we can't agree on that one. I really don't think we're that far apart on how we see things, we're just expressing it differently.
I am thinking that you have never competed at trap or skeet, and you likely don't shoot either on a regular basis.
I've been shooting clays for about 2 years now and I still feel like beginner. My first gun is a DT 11, but I switched to a Perazzi soon after. I'm sure I can shoot just as well with a 2 or 3k gun so it depends more on your budget than whether the expensive guns shoot better.
The best advice I have gotten so far is "In this sport, you can do everything wrong and still get pretty good scores"
The best advice I have gotten so far is "In this sport, you can do everything wrong and still get pretty good scores"
You just don't get what I'm trying to say. My point is that Jacques Villeneuve, driving a Ford Focus, could probably beat me driving a F1 car. But put 2 drivers of the same very high skill level, equipment will matter. I have no doubt whatsoever that any half-assed clays shooter could beat me if he/she were using a Cooey 840 and I were using a Ljutic (or whatever a super high grade gun would be). If such were not the case, why would serious, top line clays shooters buy multi-thousand dollar guns? Just to impress other shooters on the line? You'd kinda think the opposite would be true - if they could beat the world's best shooters using a Cooey, Glenfield or Marlin shotgun, it would be a helluvan embarassment to the snobby shooters with their fancy guns, no?
Anyhow, I'm done here. I've wasted enough time on this one.
There is very little technology in a shotgun- basically a tube and a choke. Cheap shotguns can and will pattern just as well as the priciest guns you can imagine. The difference for shotguns is quality- cheap guns won't last under a heavy schedule of targets. Once the gun fits well it really doesn't matter the name on the side of the barrel- the score will be proportional to the skill of the shooter pointing it.
To the OP- yes, it is possible to buy good clays scores... but not with an expensive gun, only with lots of targets and some coaching. The analogy would be more like a Buick vs a Rolls- both get you from point A to B but for some it is about the journey. Fancy wood and hand-fitting don't break targets, but 2-3 flats of targets a week will do wonders.
To the OP- yes, it is possible to buy good clays scores... but not with an expensive gun, only with lots of targets and some coaching. The analogy would be more like a Buick vs a Rolls- both get you from point A to B but for some it is about the journey. Fancy wood and hand-fitting don't break targets, but 2-3 flats of targets a week will do wonders.
The top clay breakers use the top level shotguns because they shoot 10's of thousands of targets a year and they don't want to have to keep changing guns. Additionally most of them are sponsored as the manufacturers want their guns out there- so maybe they still pay something but definitely not gunstore prices. I don't think your analogy of the F1 vs the focus is a good one for clays. For target rifle... yes- it is right on, but not for the clay sports.
Exactly, once you are into the Citori level of shotgun, you have a gun that will last for hundreds f thousands of rounds, which is several years for a high volume shooter, and a lifetime for most shooters.
If someone was buying my shotguns, I would be shooting a Krieghoff myself, not because I would shoot it any better, but why not shoot a top end gun if someone else is paying for it?
Seeing as how you avoided responding, I have to assume that my assumption was correct.
Best advice I can pass along is to shoot as much as practical. Ideally 2 or 3 times a week. If concentrating on Trap, shoot a round of singles from 16 yds, then a round of handicap from your set yardage and then a round of doubles. You have now fired 100 rounds. Enter any of the weekend matches sponsored by ATA or Pita and any of the local ones held by the clubs. You will now be firing approximately an extra 200 rounds for the weekend. All together over a season you will have shot and been scored on between 3000 to 5000 targets. (120 to 300 boxes or so. Average of $10 bucks or so a box, you see why most trap shooters reload and pick up discarded cases at the club! Despite your ups and downs in scoring, you WILL improve until that day you receive your 25 Straight patch, then the 50, the 75 and finally the coveted 100 Straight. A dedicatedshooter will wear out a field grade shotgun within a year or two so that is the best argument for buying a gun designed for trap. They are also designed for the task too with heavier weight, longer barrels and insertable choke tubes. Hang around a trap club and ask if anyone has a an older one for sale. Unfortunately the average age of the shooters is getting up there and there is no scarcity of older trap singles and some doubles. Ask to try out the gun if possible. The first time you swing a Browning BT99 you will understand what a dedicated trap gun feels like. Even if its old you will never wear it out. Mine has over a 100,000 rounds through it ans still going strong.
