Canada Class Submarines

[fat tony]

Someone will decry my use of an online resource to start off this thread but 1987 and Mulroney's plan to turbocharge the CAF was a long time ago. Many forum members were not alive even. So, here goes.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada-class_submarine

The Canada-class submarine was a proposed class of ten nuclear-powered attack submarines to be built for Canadian Forces Maritime Command (today's Royal Canadian Navy) with an option for two more. Announced in 1987, the class was intended to provide Maritime Command with a method for monitoring Canada's Arctic Ocean area while establishing Canadian sovereignty in the area. The announcement suffered significant public and private criticism and the project was cancelled before any of the submarines could be built.

And it goes on.

Opposition to program​

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Opposition at home​

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The proposed nuclear attack submarines were not received well by some politicians. As early as 1985, Ministers Joe Clark and Michael Wilson were against the project, Clark because Canadian nuclear submarines would upset the balance of power with the Warsaw Pact and Wilson because of the cost.[21] The Treasury Board objected to the program, claiming that the project was run poorly with project costs not developed accurately, especially those tied to infrastructure needs.[20][22] Members of the opposition focused on the estimated C$8 billion[23] cost of the project, pointing out the steadily increasing size of the federal deficit and debt.[24] The announcement came slightly more than a year after the Chernobyl disaster, prompting fears of similar nuclear incidents even though no submarine accidents involving reactors had occurred in the then three decades of NATO nuclear submarine use.[/quote]

Not long ago I read a well written and researched article whose hypothesis in the era from the collapse of the USSR through the War on Terror era, was that Uncle Sam never wanted military competitors in their wheelhouse.

Consequently, the USA courted many smaller states with promises of helping them modernize their militaries. This often never materialized. An example was that of Georgia.

The conclusion of the article was that Uncle Sam only wants 'ride along' military forces to participate in US led military operations.

Well, being a ride along military is better than having a meaningless symbolic military, I guess.

One day though, we may need to do it all the hard way such as in many times through history. THMhis will be days of horror.

American opposition​

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The United States objected to the RCN having SSNs as part of its fleet, fearing a significant impact to its own submarine operations in North American waters and possible conflict over access to the Northwest Passage. In order to prevent this, the United States exercised its rights under two previously signed treaties. Under the 1958 US–UK Mutual Defence Agreement, the US had the right to block the sale of submarine nuclear reactors by the United Kingdom to any third party (i.e. Canada), and under a 1959 agreement between the US and Canada the US had the right to block the purchase of submarine nuclear reactors by Canada from any third party (i.e. the United Kingdom or France).[25] Attempts to negotiate with the United States were initially unsuccessful, as Canadian Defence Minister Perrin Beatty was "told in no uncertain terms by the U.S. Defense Department and submarine service officials that a Canadian nuclear submarine program was unnecessary and even unwelcome."[/quote]

Conclusion.

The Conservative government sought re-election 1988, winning in November. However, public opinion had turned against the program and Prime Minister Brian Mulroney placed the submarines behind other costly government priorities.[22][27] Government support of the project was seen to be flagging when Perrin Beatty was moved to another Cabinet position and replaced by Bill McKnight as Minister of Defence.[27] Due to internal as well as external opposition to the acquisition of nuclear-powered submarines, a rising federal debt, and with the lessening of tensions between NATO and the Warsaw Pact, the submarines were officially cancelled as part of the federal budget released in April 1989.[28][29]

The cancellation had a two-fold effect. The first was the loss of the submarines, which were needed to replace the aging Oberons. The second was the loss of the Batch 3 Halifax-class frigates, which had been sacrificed in order to pay for the submarines.[22] The Oberons were not replaced until the purchase of the Upholder-class submarines in 1995, a conventionally-powered British design.

So. Uncle Sam says pony up the resources or get cut off.

This is why Oddawa wants to include the RCMP in the Canadian defence budget? A non military constabulary?

Uncle Sam is there to veto any important Canadian defence program? Is this why, 37 years later, we have lackluster 'if you say so' icebreakers with armament more suitable to a fisheries patrol vessel? Did big brother have the final say in what weapons and systems were going to be aboard the RCN's newish icebreakers?

 

[Onagoth]

Canada has recently expressed interest in joining AUKUS….not sure it will happen though

 

[purple]

I saw the big build up for this and other big plans to beef up the CF at the time. Unfortunately, it was a pipe dream which lost out to big socialism and big govt debt and spending on social programs and other more vote-worthy things. There grandiose plans were DOA. The fall of the Berlin Wall several years later was the final blow for the CF.

A nuclear powered submarine isn't the same as a nuclear armed submarine. Now they are talking up submarines again, and the US would be delighted if we got 10-12 of them. The Cdn public doesn't really give a rat's a$$, and this is where the real problem lies. You get the defence you are willing to pay for which is usually quite different from the defence you need.

 

[fat tony]

I am disappointed Clark was concerned more about 'tipping the balance of power' rather than concerning himself with Canada's needs. Clark's motivation to adopt this stance was more likely to maintain a happy voting base in the vote rich places.The domestic opposition yeah. They like to stab the CAF in the back. And this has been normalized for a very long time.

Someday we will sorely need a non ride along military, it won't be there, and Canada will be sold out for real. We could call it: 'fire sale day.'

 

[MlCE]

Canada has recently expressed interest in joining AUKUS….not sure it will happen though

We are unable to operate nukes unless we offload maintenance to the Americans, never mind having qualified personnel to operate them... but before that, the American shipyards can't even make enough for themselves, much less the Australians. So unfortunately no, we cannot participate in this meaningfully.

Right now the current Diesel subs we have gives us access to NATO shared information regarding submarine operations.
Just barely though...

 

[XRCD011]

I saw the big build up for this and other big plans to beef up the CF at the time. Unfortunately, it was a pipe dream which lost out to big socialism and big govt debt and spending on social programs and other more vote-worthy things. There grandiose plans were DOA. The fall of the Berlin Wall several years later was the final blow for the CF.

A nuclear powered submarine isn't the same as a nuclear armed submarine. Now they are talking up submarines again, and the US would be delighted if we got 10-12 of them. The Cdn public doesn't really give a rat's a$$, and this is where the real problem lies. You get the defence you are willing to pay for which is usually quite different from the defence you need.

True. And that was before the whole "Canada is a nation of Peacekeepers to the United Nations" myth was born.

 

[old303]

Canada may have been there at the start of peacekeeping, but it's now the domain of poorer nations who have discovered they can pick up UN peacekeeping at a profit if their soldiers cost less than the UN per diem.

As for submarines, I suspect that drone subs may be the future and getting in ahead on that might be viable.

 

[Lee Enfield]

The Perrin Beaty white paper was the last gasp of military reality for Canada. The sub choices were the British Trafalgar and the French Rubis(Améthyste) classes. The French advert was that they didn't require American permission to sell to Canada.

Today, there is too much corruption and incompetance in the Khan-Eh-Duhian procurement system.
Watch the Perun video on Khan-Eh-Duhian (naval) procurement on y*utube.

Our "war"ships aren't even armed.

A billion dollar ice breaker is scheduled to do drug interdiction in the carribean next year.https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/hmcs-harry-dewolf-one-of-canada-s-newest-warships-docks-in-windsor/ar-AA1t947d

And lets not speak about our penetration by foreign intelligence services (winnipeg labs anyone?) Or xhinese "whale" sono sensors installed on the wet coast...

Our telecommunication systems have Huawei systems...

We allowed the xhinese to steal F35 (and allegedly) F22 data that had been shared with us.

 

[fat tony]

Canada may have been there at the start of peacekeeping, but it's now the domain of poorer nations who have discovered they can pick up UN peacekeeping at a profit if their soldiers cost less than the UN per diem.

As for submarines, I suspect that drone subs may be the future and getting in ahead on that might be viable.

Sutton is covering the rise of unmanned /hybrid crewed attack subs quite well. Canada has made advances in this regard but we appear to be rapidly losing ground.

 

[scott.y.]

Probably not a real surprise in the day.
Our internal security has always been suspect and nuke technology has always been closely guarded.
The drone submarine is probably the next logical development in undersea warfare.
Regardless I can’t see any federal govt freeing up defence funds anytime soon.
I am actually surprised that that the boys and girls in uniform haven’t said see yah. I quit.
They don’t get any respect at all from the govt. and only luke warm respect from the population at large it seems

 

[fat tony]

Penetration by enemy spy rings. From what I've read, this is why when Canada really wanted LTV Corsairs and/ or F105's around 1970, we instead recieved stripped down licence built CF - 5's. A daytime gunfighter with a crosshairs for a bomb sight, when something like tigersharks would have been appropriate.

This is the harsh reality all the AVRO Canada disciples unconsciously block out.

 

[AP]

The Perrin Beaty white paper was the last gasp of military reality for Canada. The sub choices were the British Trafalgar and the French Rubis(Améthyste) classes. The French advert was that they didn't require American permission to sell to Canada.

Today, there is too much corruption and incompetance in the Khan-Eh-Duhian procurement system.
Watch the Perun video on Khan-Eh-Duhian (naval) procurement on y*utube.

Our "war"ships aren't even armed.

A billion dollar ice breaker is scheduled to do drug interdiction in the carribean next year.https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/hmcs-harry-dewolf-one-of-canada-s-newest-warships-docks-in-windsor/ar-AA1t947d

And lets not speak about our penetration by foreign intelligence services (winnipeg labs anyone?) Or xhinese "whale" sono sensors installed on the wet coast...

Our telecommunication systems have Huawei systems...

We allowed the xhinese to steal F35 (and allegedly) F22 data that had been shared with us.

I remember Perrin Beatty (the MND at the time) speaking at a dinner in Toronto assuring us that submarines were ‘on the way’ …. LOL

 

[purple]

Pls recall that the CF-5 was built in Quebec by Canadair. It was a poor boy's fighter jet that wasn't the choice of the RCAF. It was also the last jet fighter to be built in Canada.

 

[milsurpo]

And to think- we were once a world leader in nuclear power engineering. The entire country should be benefitting from green nuclear power by now but we folded like a cheap tent when the anti-nuclear wingnuts shut it all down. Now, amazingly, we have to sit through commercials from Ontario bragging about their nuclear power. Diesel subs for the arctic are a truly imbecilic concept. Our best hope is that global warming eliminates the ice.

milsurpo