Glock 17/19 seems to be the gold standard police and military are moving towards so I'm betting we end up with something totally opposite. Maybe we'll give a billion dollar contract to someone in Quebec to "modernize" the brownings.
Canada's WWII-era pistols dangerously unreliable - News Article 10/12/ '18
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This thread Sounds like a bunch of old farts romanticizing about an outdated underperforming Brownfrown.
“ (raspy grampa voice)Back in my day the Browning high power was the pinnacle of modern technology, you just need to blow in the magazines and bang on the slide and she works good as the day she left the factory”
Take off those nostalgia goggles and try out some issue worthy modern pistols, do you really want our armed forces making due with unreliable sidearms?
I wouldn’t put my life on some worn out janky Bhp jamomatic.
“ (raspy grampa voice)Back in my day the Browning high power was the pinnacle of modern technology, you just need to blow in the magazines and bang on the slide and she works good as the day she left the factory”
Take off those nostalgia goggles and try out some issue worthy modern pistols, do you really want our armed forces making due with unreliable sidearms?
I wouldn’t put my life on some worn out janky Bhp jamomatic.
I liked the late Elmer Keith's story about the Cdn soldier in WW1who was taken prisoner by 3 Germans who missed the revolver (can't remember if it was a Colt New Service or a S&W Triplelock) that he carried under his tunic.
They took shelter in a shellhole where he made sure that he placed them. He pulled the revolver in the next flash of light and killed all 3 before making his way back to his own lines. The old .455 was a good killer with its 265gr lead bullet.
I wonder how many enemies Cdn troops have killed with pistols/revolvers since then? They've sure proved to be something of a hazard to themselves, most recently in Afghanistan where we lost at least one.
I carried a Browning off and on over 32 years and felt that it was insurance until I could get to something bigger and better. Pistols also tend to be
something of a badge of office. That said, I think the troops always deserve a reliable and effective one.
They took shelter in a shellhole where he made sure that he placed them. He pulled the revolver in the next flash of light and killed all 3 before making his way back to his own lines. The old .455 was a good killer with its 265gr lead bullet.
I wonder how many enemies Cdn troops have killed with pistols/revolvers since then? They've sure proved to be something of a hazard to themselves, most recently in Afghanistan where we lost at least one.
I carried a Browning off and on over 32 years and felt that it was insurance until I could get to something bigger and better. Pistols also tend to be
something of a badge of office. That said, I think the troops always deserve a reliable and effective one.
A Webley in .455 would sure fit the bill! If we could take a Bofors out of a museum and put it on a ship we were sending to the Persian Gulf in '91 (or so the legend goes), we could scour museums country wide and maybe come up with enough old Enfield revolvers and Webleys to kit everybody out.
Who would be the best person at NDHQ to talk to about this?
Who would be the best person at NDHQ to talk to about this?
I admit to having a nostalgic attachment to the BHP; the Inglis and the commercial models. Just like the 'old soldiers' I knew who were nostalgic for their No. 4 Lee-Enfields, Brens and Vickers MGs while us Cold War newbies were delighted with the FNC1 and the Browning .30 MG. That 'like' did not extend however, to the C2 which we learned to hate early on.
I never fired a shot in anger during my time in service but did put a lot of rds down range then and after as a civilian in competition. When I was stationed at CFB Churchill, the garrison pistol team (a mix of all arms/corps types) attended a Command Pistol Shoot at CFB Shiloh. We left Churchill on the "Blueberry Special" in a blizzard and arrived at Shiloh in a dust storm!
We were shocked to see that our competition was not playing by the same rules. Our guns were as issued but with proven magazines. All had been test fired by the PPCLI Captain that ran the Arctic Warfare School. We saw any number of guns with emery cloth on the front and back straps, mag safeties removed, custom barrels, upgraded sights, etc.
We brought this to the attention of the Major running the shoot and he was as unhappy as we were, but it was too late to make any rule changes. Over the years, it had gotten away from the basics but he was adamant that in future, the guns would be "as issued". As a civilian, I shot into IPSC "A" Class with "tweaked" BHPs (ambi safeties, upgraded sights, barrels, mag safety removed) and always made the provincial and national teams with them while I was active in competition.
During this discussion I have tried to be civil, avoiding insults and flaming rhetoric by rebutting individual points of view as opposed to attacking the poster. The comments made by those with actual field experience with the Inglis HP were appreciated and I concede that the Inglis guns of my era likely had a lot less mileage on them than current issue.
Every generation of soldiers has prejudices towards certain arms based on history and experience. I thank the more current generation for their service. I wonder what arms they will look back on with nostalgia when they are the 'old soldiers' .... ?
I never fired a shot in anger during my time in service but did put a lot of rds down range then and after as a civilian in competition. When I was stationed at CFB Churchill, the garrison pistol team (a mix of all arms/corps types) attended a Command Pistol Shoot at CFB Shiloh. We left Churchill on the "Blueberry Special" in a blizzard and arrived at Shiloh in a dust storm!
We were shocked to see that our competition was not playing by the same rules. Our guns were as issued but with proven magazines. All had been test fired by the PPCLI Captain that ran the Arctic Warfare School. We saw any number of guns with emery cloth on the front and back straps, mag safeties removed, custom barrels, upgraded sights, etc.
We brought this to the attention of the Major running the shoot and he was as unhappy as we were, but it was too late to make any rule changes. Over the years, it had gotten away from the basics but he was adamant that in future, the guns would be "as issued". As a civilian, I shot into IPSC "A" Class with "tweaked" BHPs (ambi safeties, upgraded sights, barrels, mag safety removed) and always made the provincial and national teams with them while I was active in competition.
During this discussion I have tried to be civil, avoiding insults and flaming rhetoric by rebutting individual points of view as opposed to attacking the poster. The comments made by those with actual field experience with the Inglis HP were appreciated and I concede that the Inglis guns of my era likely had a lot less mileage on them than current issue.
Every generation of soldiers has prejudices towards certain arms based on history and experience. I thank the more current generation for their service. I wonder what arms they will look back on with nostalgia when they are the 'old soldiers' .... ?
The Bofors taken from HMCS Bonaventure were a big part of our airfield defence in NATO in the late '80s. Fill the sky with enough $hit and some Russky was bound to fly into it. Unfortunately, it was mostly ornamental and, at best, a revenge act for somebody who would fly low enough to make a CW delivery.
My late uncle used to tell the story of one of the rare occasions in Normandy where the Luftwaffe showed up to do a bit of strafing. There was a Brit LAA outfit in location and they didn't fire a shot in response. The troops took considerable umbrage at this and asked the Brits why they hadn't done anything. The big excuse was along the lines that they'd just finished cleaning their Bofors and didn't think they would have been able to stop things anyway. Allied unity and a few Brits took a black eye after that one.
I used to work in NDHQ and would have enjoyed talking about the relative effectiveness of the .455 and the 9mm. I'm afraid big revolvers were out in the age of gender equity and stuff; their frames are just too big for the female troopies to wrap their hands around.
The same thing applied when they were finalizing plans for the MLVW, the Deuce and a Half replacement. They were going to put in an auto transmission, whereas the standard US M35 truck used a trouble free/low maintenance manual tranny. I'd had a lot of experience with the M35 in the Middle East and told them the school solution was to build the truck as is, but to put on a hardtop cab and a decent heater. The argument was that the coming wave of female troops would have a tough time with the manual tranny; short legs, etc., so in went the non-standard automatic tranny. I don't know what the relative maintenance/ driver training costs worked out to over the years, but you can still see the MLVWs snorting around with girl soldier drivers.
My late uncle used to tell the story of one of the rare occasions in Normandy where the Luftwaffe showed up to do a bit of strafing. There was a Brit LAA outfit in location and they didn't fire a shot in response. The troops took considerable umbrage at this and asked the Brits why they hadn't done anything. The big excuse was along the lines that they'd just finished cleaning their Bofors and didn't think they would have been able to stop things anyway. Allied unity and a few Brits took a black eye after that one.
I used to work in NDHQ and would have enjoyed talking about the relative effectiveness of the .455 and the 9mm. I'm afraid big revolvers were out in the age of gender equity and stuff; their frames are just too big for the female troopies to wrap their hands around.
The same thing applied when they were finalizing plans for the MLVW, the Deuce and a Half replacement. They were going to put in an auto transmission, whereas the standard US M35 truck used a trouble free/low maintenance manual tranny. I'd had a lot of experience with the M35 in the Middle East and told them the school solution was to build the truck as is, but to put on a hardtop cab and a decent heater. The argument was that the coming wave of female troops would have a tough time with the manual tranny; short legs, etc., so in went the non-standard automatic tranny. I don't know what the relative maintenance/ driver training costs worked out to over the years, but you can still see the MLVWs snorting around with girl soldier drivers.
If the Army turned a blind eye to equipping rifles with after market goodies, there was any number of options available on the market for carrying a pistol.
No legend. Well, I dunno about the GW1 part, but until very very recently (maybe still for some?) the Mk 5c Bofors was the main armament on the Kingston class. They're undergoing a refit now where they're being removed and replaced with a .50 mount. Not sure if they've done all vessels or if all are being so modified.
You don't have to necessarily shoot them down with SHORAD, just pose enough of a threat to force attacking aircraft up to an altitude where HIMAD can effectively engage them. Nowadays every LAV III and Coyote is effectively a SHORAD system, the 25mm chain gun is a very significant threat to helos and fixed wing ground attack.
On 6 June this year I took my late uncle's S&W Pre-Victory revolver out to the range and could cover all 24 shots @ 15 yds with my hand. It was spot on with a 6 o'clock hold. That's pretty good results from a design that's more than 100 yrs old. My uncle carried this piece all the way from Normandy to the end in Holland and mailed it home in pieces after VE Day. Weapons accountability and Canada Post seemed to be a bit more forgiving 73 years ago.
I could probably count on one hand the number who used the issue Bianchi or shoulder holster. I used a Safariland 6004 for outside the wire and a Comp Tac kydex belt holster for inside. The Comp Tac STILL has moon dust in it, 12 year later
Personally, I fitted G10 grips, deck tape on the front and back strap, and ditched the mag safety. That's about all you can manage - nothing you can do about the sights short of a milling machine, and properly fitting an extended safety wasn't something I was willing to risk getting wrong.
I've played with the LAVIII /25mm quite a bit in training simulations and found that it could sure tear the a$$ out of an airmobile assault. I don't know how effective it would be against the fast movers who tend to stay high and deliver PGM these days.
There's always the 'golden BB' strategy though. During the 2003 Iraq war some smart guy on the other side had his troops lay on their backs and fire up a storm of AK47 fire for a major helicopter movement to fly through. It was a bad day, even for the Apaches. Funnily enough, the Mujadaheen liked the old Martini-Henrys against Soviet helicopters in Afghanistan because they threw out a big, heavy scab of lead which wasn't good for the rotors.
Cameron SS
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indeed there was. The issued holster was known in my circle as the widow maker. No way you could get anywhere close to a 2 second draw time with it. Maybe 5 with practice unless you started stripped off the retention devices. Being a poor universal holster you seriously risked losing the pistol if you were trying to make it easier to draw. just terrible.
My team came back in to the airfield every 6-8 weeks or so, and we used to joke that really the only good thing that came of going back to KAF was being able to keep up with the latest Holster Fashions on the boardwalk. Someone local was hand-making custom leather shoulder holsters and they were all the rage with the Hesco Hobbits.
I could probably count on one hand the number who used the issue Bianchi or shoulder holster. I used a Safariland 6004 for outside the wire and a Comp Tac kydex belt holster for inside. The Comp Tac STILL has moon dust in it, 12 year later
Personally, I fitted G10 grips, deck tape on the front and back strap, and ditched the mag safety. That's about all you can manage - nothing you can do about the sights short of a milling machine, and properly fitting an extended safety wasn't something I was willing to risk getting wrong.
Most of my guys (myself included) just carried the pistol in a single mag shingle on the Right Front of the fighting order (Mostly Tactical Tailor). We mostly carried the pistol inside the wire in a minimalist pants-belt holster bought on the KAF Boardwalk, or in a tactical holster on a pistol-belt.
My issued Hi Power lost the Mag Safety and standard Grips and gained Mk III Grips, a MK III extended ambi Safety, and Grip-tape on the front and rear straps. My trusty 2IC (a fellow gun-guy) put everything back to issued state after I was blown up and evacuated. That rifle needed a new Receiver Extension as a minimum, which was kinked from the blast. Other thsan that, my small arms fared pretty well in the blast. My legs, not so much....
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oh god the issued holster is crap, better then the 82 Pattern holster but still total crap.
as for only using 1800rds for out testing that's all I had over the minimum load, and they were not going to let me dip into that because then they would have to sort out a resupply of ammo. Took 4 months to get 4 boxed of IMPs sent to us to replace the ones that were expired and given extensions on the expiry dates twice. We certainly were unloved by the J4 desk asking all those pesky questions. Bet they are still sitting at the minimum operational ammo.
as for only using 1800rds for out testing that's all I had over the minimum load, and they were not going to let me dip into that because then they would have to sort out a resupply of ammo. Took 4 months to get 4 boxed of IMPs sent to us to replace the ones that were expired and given extensions on the expiry dates twice. We certainly were unloved by the J4 desk asking all those pesky questions. Bet they are still sitting at the minimum operational ammo.
Here's a question; how many times did Cdn troops actually use pistols to kill or wound or suppress the bad guys in Afghanistan? There must be some AARs or official records on this which may be somewhat different than the anecdotal evidence.
r34skyline
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Funny you mention that. I've seen a few of those leather specials around still.
stencollector
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I was in KAF (just a lowly contractor) for the third time in 2011. General Leslie was by for a pep talk to the troops, and someone asked him when we were getting a new PDW/pistol. His answer came in a question:"Do you know how many Taliban we killed with the pistol"? at which time he held up his hand and touched his thumb to his forefinger, making a zero. He stated it just wasn't a priority at that time.
I had broached the subject with the LCMM at one time, and he could not say what form the PDW would take, be it another handgun, or perhaps one of the smallish AR/M16 platforms, or some form of SMG. At that time, the AR/M16 type platform was appealing in that it woul dhave a reduced training cost along with parts commonality.
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