Ever since ivi or imperial shut its doors to ammo manufacturing in this country, is there anyone else in canada that manufactures on the scale and magnitude of those guys did years ago? Tell you one thing, if anyone in canada with the financial clout ever did, they would probably do very well . We have the raw materials, and certainly the know how, and it would be so nice not to be under uncle sams short leash as far as supplies and restrictions. After all isnt imr brand powder manufactured here and then packaged down south? thats a good start. Wishful thinking or naive thoughts who knows........stu
canadian ammo
- Thread starter stugatz
- Start date
I think the closest thing to IVI is Wolf Ammunition, and from what I hear is pretty well priced, but is no where near the volume Imperial/IVI produced before they stopped civilian sales.
IVI still produces ammo for the Military, and is currently owned by General Dynamics which I believe is a US based company, so really their is no more major, purely Canadian ammunition manufacturers anymore, at least not that I know of.
I am sure that if a Canadian could scratch up a few million and produced a select calibers that are in high demand they could do very well. There have been several threads started (one by me) that asked about the costs of Starting a medium scale ammunition company, and the costs were pretty high.
IVI still produces ammo for the Military, and is currently owned by General Dynamics which I believe is a US based company, so really their is no more major, purely Canadian ammunition manufacturers anymore, at least not that I know of.
I am sure that if a Canadian could scratch up a few million and produced a select calibers that are in high demand they could do very well. There have been several threads started (one by me) that asked about the costs of Starting a medium scale ammunition company, and the costs were pretty high.
If someone had enough startup capital to load 30-06, 308 and 270 here they could make enough Canadian sales to stay a float. Then sell public shares to expand. I know I would invest more than a few thousand bucks. And I'm sure with just the number of reg'd users here we could raise another $million in shares to make that expansion a go. Think of it...gunnutz being owning shareholders in the Canadian ammo business!
The Canadian market is just to small and shrinking to make a long term propsition, worth building a factory feasible. Unless they get massive government contracts, the civilian market just isn't profitable enough, even in a market as large as the US. It's the government contracts that keep prices within some semblance of reason.
The gov'ts of the world have gone to places like POF in Pakistan for much of their bigger stuff and even some of their smaller stuff. There isn't much incentive in North America to make munitions anymore.
The amount of ammunition expended in Canada over a year by police and civilians is a drop in the bucket in comparison to the US sales. Even there, the profit margins are slim.
CanAm or maybe the producers at Wolf could step in and make a few comments any time now.
The gov'ts of the world have gone to places like POF in Pakistan for much of their bigger stuff and even some of their smaller stuff. There isn't much incentive in North America to make munitions anymore.
The amount of ammunition expended in Canada over a year by police and civilians is a drop in the bucket in comparison to the US sales. Even there, the profit margins are slim.
CanAm or maybe the producers at Wolf could step in and make a few comments any time now.
.22 would be out of the question, as would shotgun ammo; the supplies for that are readily available from the US. Specialty ammo is also out. Bigger fish are the handgun and popular centre fire rifle ammo. What we can do now is support the current manufacturers of "remanufactured" ammo in Canada. THe only thing that is used is the brass. I consider most ofthe remanufactured ammo in Canada to exceed the quality of "factory" ammo, and I prefer it over using winchester, AE,.etc....
Add .223, 9mm and .40 cal to the list. I'd buy shares in the company. If this was the only true Canadian company making .556 then you'd hope the CF, RCMP and local Police would buy from them, but they probably go to the lowest bidder even if it's Chinese.
FACE FACTS, the Canadian market on the world stage is just a grain of sand on the beach....
The civilian market is a small fraction of the US market, as for the law enforcement market that is a killer, the major manufacturers (American) will compete directly with you for the various government agencies business often at prices that defy competition....
Its one thing to put together several million dollars for equipment, property, buildings such as powder storage, primer storage, production, packaging, warehousing and shipping.... Did I mention you will need a fully equipped, first class machine shop , etc, etc....
Then you have to find qualified people for the various areas of production, a lead machinist with experience in making and maintaining your drawing dies, bunting dies, loading dies, extrusion equipment, etc, etc....
You will need a couple of very qualified millrights just to keep everything running smoothly....
You will require several very able machine operators, they must have extensive knowledge of the various steps in making cases and bullets....
Don't forget your QC people, they MUST have a very deep knowledge of the product, knowledge of every step in the production, after all they will decide what goes out of the plant....
Lets not forget your ballistic facilities, in our climate you would require an indoor range to insure consistent temperature, humidity etc.... In short the ideal test environment....
The range should be at least 100 meters.
Oh yes, take some of your left over funds for your new lab, I won't go into this one, You will need at least two hi end chronographs, top notch hi speed photo gear, two complete pressure gun set-ups, copper crusher and piazo, of course you will need a test barrel for each system in each caliber you are manufacturing....
Now that you have made all this ammo you need to have your new marketing department go out there and sell it, attend trade shows, call on government agencies, call on wholesalers, etc, etc....
Don't forget that if the "big boys" decide you are a threat to them they can well afford to put you under with special promotions, extended billing, etc, etc....
In short, IF YOU have that much money laying around why the hell would you want to get into this business ??
Just my 2cts after several decades in this trade....
John
The civilian market is a small fraction of the US market, as for the law enforcement market that is a killer, the major manufacturers (American) will compete directly with you for the various government agencies business often at prices that defy competition....
Its one thing to put together several million dollars for equipment, property, buildings such as powder storage, primer storage, production, packaging, warehousing and shipping.... Did I mention you will need a fully equipped, first class machine shop , etc, etc....
Then you have to find qualified people for the various areas of production, a lead machinist with experience in making and maintaining your drawing dies, bunting dies, loading dies, extrusion equipment, etc, etc....
You will need a couple of very qualified millrights just to keep everything running smoothly....
You will require several very able machine operators, they must have extensive knowledge of the various steps in making cases and bullets....
Don't forget your QC people, they MUST have a very deep knowledge of the product, knowledge of every step in the production, after all they will decide what goes out of the plant....
Lets not forget your ballistic facilities, in our climate you would require an indoor range to insure consistent temperature, humidity etc.... In short the ideal test environment....
The range should be at least 100 meters.
Oh yes, take some of your left over funds for your new lab, I won't go into this one, You will need at least two hi end chronographs, top notch hi speed photo gear, two complete pressure gun set-ups, copper crusher and piazo, of course you will need a test barrel for each system in each caliber you are manufacturing....
Now that you have made all this ammo you need to have your new marketing department go out there and sell it, attend trade shows, call on government agencies, call on wholesalers, etc, etc....
Don't forget that if the "big boys" decide you are a threat to them they can well afford to put you under with special promotions, extended billing, etc, etc....
In short, IF YOU have that much money laying around why the hell would you want to get into this business ??
Just my 2cts after several decades in this trade....
John
- Location
- NW New-Brunswick
he's got a point
dudley2112
Youth Group Leader
- Location
- Ottawa, Ontario
why doesnt some one just do what Cenataur does? i would imagine its MUCH easier to import just components than loaded ammunition, so why not import inexpensive brass and bullets from various makers, and then simply assemble it here? Im sure there are companies in europe or asia that you could get bulk brass and bullets from. Am i wrong?
What shortages are you taking about.. Do you think the big 3(win,rem,fed) care about the civilian market..
They make their bread and butter with Military and LE contracts.. Large orders that take far less overhead to deal with... NYPD alone has 35,000 members how much ammo would you think they go through in a year?
Why not just load it in Europe or Asia? Cheaper labour.
Also the plants are very reluctant to sell components.
dudley2112
Youth Group Leader
- Location
- Ottawa, Ontario
i was thinking it might be easier to avoid the NRCAN BS is it were only bullets and brass being imported rather then the assembled ammunition.
No the same approval process. But, if you make the ammo here, you must provide the technical specs. Overseas suppliers will provide that for you (generally)
dudley2112
Youth Group Leader
- Location
- Ottawa, Ontario
oh
then in that case i see a few serious flaws in my plan lol.... begs the question why cenataur even bothers?
