Canadian AR15 Consumer Guide - *Help Requested*

blaxsun

blaxsun

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In an effort to put together an AR15 "consumer guide", we thought it might be beneficial to throw together a template listing the specifications, any unique features, benefits, etc. Rather than have one or two people research everything, I thought it might split-up the workload if 1-2 people took their favourite AR and send me the details to compile. If there are multiple models, please list the specs and model for each. Thanks.
.....

AAC
Adcor
Armalite
ATR
Barrett
Bushmaster
Colt/Diemaco
Core15
Daniel Defense
Dlask
DPMS
H&K
LMT
LWRC - blaxsun
Motiuk Mfg.
NEA
Norinco
POF
Remington
RRA
PWS
Sig
Spike's Tactical
Stag

Aero Precision
Cadex/Socom
Mega Arms
PSA
 
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Not much of a chart is it???

Are you going to buy one of each so you can document every aspect of it manufacture?

Who decides what qualifies as a Teir 1 or Teir 2, etc. ?????
 
rivetc78 said:
Not much of a chart is it???

Are you going to buy one of each so you can document every aspect of it manufacture? Who decides what qualifies as a Teir 1 or Teir 2, etc. ?????
Click to expand...

I need some help here - having never owned most of these... And no, I'm definitely not going to buy one of each. I thought a starting point would be a list of everything.

Maybe just a 1-5* rating for each in terms of price, features, quality, etc. I think most have been upgraded and improved to the point where I don't think you can necessarily class them as a Tier-1, Tier-2, etc. But some will potentially offer more value than others.
 
List stolen from ar15.com:

AAC
Accurate Tool & Manufacturing
Adams Arms
Ad-Tek
Addax Tactical
AFM
Alexander Arms
Ameetec
AGP Arms
Ardel Engineering & Manufacturing
Armalite
American Spirit Arms
Anderson Manufacturing
Anvil Arms
Aero Precision
ATI
Arizona Armory
Barnes Precision Machine
Bartlett Enterprises
Battle Born
BCM
Black Heart International (BHI)
Black Hole Weaponry
Black Rain Ordnance
Blackthorne
BOHICA
Bushmaster
Barrett
CD Defense
Colt
Carolina Mountain Tactical
Cavalry Arms ( not producing, still available)
CMMG, Inc.
Century Arms
Centurion Arms
Continental Machine & Tool (CMT)
Core 15
Christensen Arms
Crusader Weaponry
C3 Defense
Dane Armory
Daniel Defense
Del-Ton
Delaware Machinery
Denny's Guns
Dalphon
Dedicated Technology
Diemaco
Dlask
DPMS
DPM Shops
D.S. Arms
DSA Inc.
DSG Arms
double Diamond
Double Star
Dreadnaught Industries
DSC/J&P Dist.
Essential Arms
Eagle Arms
Firebird Precision
FN Manufacturing
Frankford Armory
Fulton Armory
GATITO Arms
Good Times Outdoors
Gunsmoke
High Standard
Head Down Products
Hero-Guns
Hesse / Vulcan Arms
HK
Hughes Precision Products
Huldra Arms
Iron Ridge Arms
JD Machine Tech
JP Rifles, Inc.
Kaiser
Kies
Knight's Armament
Larue Tactical
LAR
Lauer Custom Weaponry
Legion Firearms
Les Baer Custom
Lone Wolf
Loki Weapons Systems
LMT
LRB Arms
LWRC
M2 Corporation
Magpul
McKay Enterprises, LLC.
MGI
Mega Machine
Mohawk Armory
Mossberg
Next Generation
NoDak Spud
Norinco
Noveske
Olympic Arms
Para USA
PAW Arms
Plum Crazy (Plastic)
POF
Predator Custom Shop
PSA (Palmetto State Armory)
PWA (Pac West Arms)
PWS
Quality Arms
Quentin Defense
R-Guns
Red Jacket LLC.
Red River Tactical
Remington
RGM
RIP Tactical
RND Machining
Rock River Arms
Rocky Mountain Arms
Roggio Arsenal
Ruger
Sabre Defense
Seekins
Sendra
Sharps
SLR-15
SI Defense
Sig Sauer
Sionics weapon systems
SOG Armory
Spikes Tactical
Smith & Wesson
SMOS
Surplus Ammo & Arms
Stag
STI
Stinger Arms
Superior Arms
Sun Devil
Tactical Innovations
Tactical Machining
TNW
USA Tactical Firearms
Vltor
Windham Weaponry
Wilson Combat
YHM Co.
Z-M Weapons
Zombie Defense


what is the tier chart going to be based on? quality? finish? function? reliability?
 
For better or worse, NEA. don't bother putting manuf that can't be had up here.
 
blaxsun said:
I need some help here - having never owned most of these... And no, I'm definitely not going to buy one of each. I thought a starting point would be a list of everything.

Maybe just a 1-5* rating for each in terms of price, features, quality, etc. I think most have been upgraded and improved to the point where I don't think you can necessarily class them as a Tier-1, Tier-2, etc. But some will potentially offer more value than others.
Click to expand...

If what interests you is something similar to Rob Sloyer's M4 chart, then a 1-5 star rating is the opposite of what he would have done or would do.

The whole point of "The Chart" is to QUANTIFY why the Colt is a superior rifle to most comparable machines, and to do that by comparing various guns to the M4 TDP.

The star rating system would be totally subjective, and there would be no way to determine the bias of the people doing the rating.

If you think a Canadian version of the chart is worthwhile - and I'm not against this idea - then it's only worthwhile if it includes objective data, and nothing else. That it is why it is such a huge undertaking...you need to get a ton of verified data which most people don't understand and which many companies won't give you.

Finally, you run in to the problem of determining whether the TDP reflects the actual "best practises" approach. For example, in my view there are forms of nitriding which are now superior to chrome lining...but the TDP specifies chrome lining. Does that make a gun with a nitrided barrel a tier 2 gun?

This is exactly the problem with "tier" classification...most people don't know enough about why those terms exist and where they came from to participate meaningfully in the discussion. It rapidly devolves in to "well I like my Stag/DD/HK/NEA/Oly".
 
misanthropist said:
The star rating system would be totally subjective, and there would be no way to determine the bias of the people doing the rating.

If you think a Canadian version of the chart is worthwhile - and I'm not against this idea - then it's only worthwhile if it includes objective data, and nothing else. That it is why it is such a huge undertaking...you need to get a ton of verified data which most people don't understand and which many companies won't give you.

Finally, you run in to the problem of determining whether the TDP reflects the actual "best practises" approach. For example, in my view there are forms of nitriding which are now superior to chrome lining...but the TDP specifies chrome lining. Does that make a gun with a nitrided barrel a tier 2 gun?

This is exactly the problem with "tier" classification...most people don't know enough about why those terms exist and where they came from to participate meaningfully in the discussion. It rapidly devolves in to "well I like my Stag/DD/HK/NEA/Oly".
Click to expand...

These are excellent points and suggestions, which is why I was looking for feedback (so thank-you). I wasn't thinking along the lines of anything as intensive as "tier classification" necessarily, but rather - an informal guide that can give some reasonable expectations as to price, performance, features, quality, etc. Maybe I should simplify it into a "black rifle buyer's guide" and expand it beyond just ARs...
 
It would be nice to see a list of specifications and variations, along a simple boolean yes/no qualifying so a person can glance through and see what manufacturers offer chrome, or calibers, or tolerances if available. When you rate things, ratings are all subjective, someone who is used to loose tolerances might think that tight tolerances "suck" because none of their favorite ammo or parts will work.

I think an objective yes/no system would be better, and what is compatable with what, along with an optional "expectancy" section for submissions on expected malfunction rates.
 
Stevebot-7 said:
It would be nice to see a list of specifications and variations, along a simple boolean yes/no qualifying so a person can glance through and see what manufacturers offer chrome, or calibers, or tolerances if available. When you rate things, ratings are all subjective, someone who is used to loose tolerances might think that tight tolerances "suck" because none of their favorite ammo or parts will work.

I think an objective yes/no system would be better, and what is compatable with what, along with an optional "expectancy" section for submissions on expected malfunction rates.
Click to expand...

Great idea. So what kind of specifications, variations and options were you thinking? Barrel length? Included accessories? (grips, stocks, rails, muzzle devices, etc.)
 
blaxsun said:
Great idea. So what kind of specifications, variations and options were you thinking? Barrel length? Included accessories? (grips, stocks, rails, muzzle devices, etc.)
Click to expand...

Well, everything essentially, barrel length options, rail length options, gas length options, caliber options.
Sort of a text collection of all the parts available. From the DD website that allows you to mix and match your AR it seems that lots of their rails are incompatible with their gas system lengths. I know I'm looking for a 9" rail, at least I think that's what I need, it would be nice to see what manufacturers sell 9" rails.

I'll see if I can get a mockup of my idea when I get home.
 
Yes you need a fill in template. Such things as MPI, barrel, lower/upper material and process, bolt details, F site etc. Plus unique features. Keep in mind there are different models.

For the ADCOR upper I would add it's a hybrid piston system. The gas tube of the barrel goes to the piston which is fixed to the FF handguard. So not attached or directly affecting the barrel.

The LMT mrp system also comes to mind for unique features with the mono FF rail and user changeable barrel system.

Rather than a "tier" system I would orientate this as a consumer information system. Think Consumers report.
 
Epoxy7 said:
Yes you need a fill in template. Such things as MPI, barrel, lower/upper material and process, bolt details, F site etc. Plus unique features. Keep in mind there are different models.

For the ADCOR upper I would add it's a hybrid piston system. The gas tube of the barrel goes to the piston which is fixed to the FF handguard. So not attached or directly affecting the barrel.

The LMT mrp system also comes to mind for unique features with the mono FF rail and user changeable barrel system.

Rather than a "tier" system I would orientate this as a consumer information system. Think Consumers report.
Click to expand...

Already started. You know, if we got everyone who's a fan of the above rifles to do a complete write-up of features, etc. - it wouldn't take very much time at all. I'll take the LWRC...
 
well how about 'standard equipment' or oem includes:
Cost at OEM
Interior
- Finish
- metallurgy
- LPK manuf
Exterior
- coating
Weight unloaded
BBL
- Length
-Coating Process
- construction type
- FH type
- Chambering
- Feed Ramp
Stock
- Fixed or Pos
- of Pos - what kind
Handgaurd
- type, brand
Rail
- T marked, milspec
Gas system
- short
- Carbine
- midlethg
- rifle.

options and accessories
- bbl
- grips
- handguard
- sling
- stock

Basically #### that people care about when shooting at the range. Not #### that people argue about over the internet.
Some of them would be boolean values, some would not..

Think of looking at a car shopping website.
 
^ Perfect. We'll go with nza's suggestion for a default template. We can always expand on it later...
.....

So when you choose an AR15 to gather the specs on, please post it here so I can revise the first post (that way we won't be duplicating efforts). If you're unsure of something just put "---" beside it for now and I'm sure (collectively) we can fill it in later. Thanks!

PS. Dealers/manufacturers' input is welcome and appreciated as well!
 
Big list

luke s said:
List stolen from ar15.com:

AAC
Accurate Tool & Manufacturing
Adams Arms
Ad-Tek
Addax Tactical
AFM
Alexander Arms
Ameetec
AGP Arms
Ardel Engineering & Manufacturing
Armalite
American Spirit Arms
Anderson Manufacturing
​
Anvil Arms
Aero Precision
ATI
Arizona Armory
Barnes Precision Machine
Bartlett Enterprises
Battle Born
BCM
Black Heart International (BHI)
Black Hole Weaponry
Black Rain Ordnance
Blackthorne
BOHICA
Bushmaster
Barrett
CD Defense
Colt
Carolina Mountain Tactical
Cavalry Arms ( not producing, still available)
CMMG, Inc.
Century Arms
Centurion Arms
Continental Machine & Tool (CMT)
Core 15
Christensen Arms
Crusader Weaponry
C3 Defense
Dane Armory
Daniel Defense
Del-Ton
Delaware Machinery
Denny's Guns
Dalphon
Dedicated Technology
Diemaco
Dlask
DPMS
DPM Shops
D.S. Arms
DSA Inc.
DSG Arms
double Diamond
Double Star
Dreadnaught Industries
DSC/J&P Dist.
Essential Arms
Eagle Arms
Firebird Precision
FN Manufacturing
Frankford Armory
Fulton Armory
GATITO Arms
Good Times Outdoors
Gunsmoke
High Standard
Head Down Products
Hero-Guns
Hesse / Vulcan Arms
HK
Hughes Precision Products
Huldra Arms
Iron Ridge Arms
JD Machine Tech
JP Rifles, Inc.
Kaiser
Kies
Knight's Armament
Larue Tactical
LAR
Lauer Custom Weaponry
Legion Firearms
Les Baer Custom
Lone Wolf
Loki Weapons Systems
LMT
LRB Arms
LWRC
M2 Corporation
Magpul
McKay Enterprises, LLC.
MGI
Mega Machine
Mohawk Armory
Mossberg
Next Generation
NoDak Spud
Norinco
Noveske
Olympic Arms
Para USA
PAW Arms
Plum Crazy (Plastic)
POF
Predator Custom Shop
PSA (Palmetto State Armory)
PWA (Pac West Arms)
PWS
Quality Arms
Quentin Defense
R-Guns
Red Jacket LLC.
Red River Tactical
Remington
RGM
RIP Tactical
RND Machining
Rock River Arms
Rocky Mountain Arms
Roggio Arsenal
Ruger
Sabre Defense
Seekins
Sendra
Sharps
SLR-15
SI Defense
Sig Sauer
Sionics weapon systems
SOG Armory
Spikes Tactical
Smith & Wesson
SMOS
Surplus Ammo & Arms
Stag
STI
Stinger Arms
Superior Arms
Sun Devil
Tactical Innovations
Tactical Machining
TNW
USA Tactical Firearms
Vltor
Windham Weaponry
Wilson Combat
YHM Co.
Z-M Weapons
Zombie Defense


what is the tier chart going to be based on? quality? finish? function? reliability?
Click to expand...
 
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