Canadian Army Journal Sharpshooter Article

Very good article, things I have been thinking about for years, but who listens to a lowly corporal who is now an officer cadet ;)

I never did like the idea of the designated marksman though, I always felt that the CF was small enough that you could afford to train everyone in the combat arms and the guy and in the pointy end of service support to a very high standard. Shooting out to 5-600M should be a fundamental skill. Ranges with as much realism as possible should also be created. Ask guys who just came back about the most common firing positions and adjust the ranges accordingly. Have ranges that can shoot up hill, down hill, at angles, unknown distance ranges, and above all, spend the money on the ammo so they can shoot every month. Let them do the SAT once a week. I understand that it can be a very expensive prospect, but it will surely pay off in the long run.

I will not say which cartridge I would choose, because I don't want to get into a big pissing match. :D
 
Very good article, things I have been thinking about for years, but who listens to a lowly corporal who is now an officer cadet ;)

I never did like the idea of the designated marksman though, I always felt that the CF was small enough that you could afford to train everyone in the combat arms and the guy and in the pointy end of service support to a very high standard. Shooting out to 5-600M should be a fundamental skill. Ranges with as much realism as possible should also be created. Ask guys who just came back about the most common firing positions and adjust the ranges accordingly. Have ranges that can shoot up hill, down hill, at angles, unknown distance ranges, and above all, spend the money on the ammo so they can shoot every month. Let them do the SAT once a week. I understand that it can be a very expensive prospect, but it will surely pay off in the long run.

I will not say which cartridge I would choose, because I don't want to get into a big pissing match. :D

Ok 2 points here that need to be commented on :D

Oh go out and adjust the ranges..... Oh my thats a huge order, you have any idea how hard it is to get anything approved... I used to have hair, but I've pulled it all out now :D and its not just from talking with Army HQ, just trying to explain why we need to shoot real bullets at targets to a analyst is too much for me some days. Oh and why is there lead in bullets... :eek: AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH :mad: I need to choke someone :D

Now the second point is "have ranges shoot uphill etc..... " thats what is called feild firing. They are easy to get approved and cost almost nothing. You just have to book the training area, and confirm that your templates fit, easy stuff. (unless the entire training area is flat then your pooched)


But I can't hear you because your just aa OCDT :p :D :D

hey you have a string on you uniform.... oh no wait... that your rank badge :D :D baaaaaahaaaaahaaaaa :D


but yes everhone needs to do a lot more shooting, last time I was on the range I was with the OR staff :eek: oh my what a gong show. most of them should have spent a few days in the SAT trainer learning the fundementals of holding and aiming before they let them out on the range with real bullets.

oh back to the article, lots of good points.
 
Ok 2 points here that need to be commented on :D

Oh go out and adjust the ranges..... Oh my thats a huge order, you have any idea how hard it is to get anything approved... I used to have hair, but I've pulled it all out now :D and its not just from talking with Army HQ, just trying to explain why we need to shoot real bullets at targets to a analyst is too much for me some days. Oh and why is there lead in bullets... :eek: AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH :mad: I need to choke someone :D

Now the second point is "have ranges shoot uphill etc..... " thats what is called feild firing. They are easy to get approved and cost almost nothing. You just have to book the training area, and confirm that your templates fit, easy stuff. (unless the entire training area is flat then your pooched)



But I can't hear you because your just aa OCDT :p :D :D

hey you have a string on you uniform.... oh no wait... that your rank badge :D :D baaaaaahaaaaahaaaaa :D


but yes everhone needs to do a lot more shooting, last time I was on the range I was with the OR staff :eek: oh my what a gong show. most of them should have spent a few days in the SAT trainer learning the fundementals of holding and aiming before they let them out on the range with real bullets.

oh back to the article, lots of good points.

breathe man! :D:p
 
Field firing is only useful if it has feed back. Reactive targets or steel gongs are needed so a firer knows he has made a hit or miss. Setting up a dozen figure 11s on a hillside and having 50 people hammer away at them is nothing but a waste of ammo.

I love shooting steel.
 
Ok 2 points here that need to be commented on :D

Oh go out and adjust the ranges..... Oh my thats a huge order, you have any idea how hard it is to get anything approved... I used to have hair, but I've pulled it all out now :D and its not just from talking with Army HQ, just trying to explain why we need to shoot real bullets at targets to a analyst is too much for me some days. Oh and why is there lead in bullets... :eek: AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH :mad: I need to choke someone :D

Now the second point is "have ranges shoot uphill etc..... " thats what is called feild firing. They are easy to get approved and cost almost nothing. You just have to book the training area, and confirm that your templates fit, easy stuff. (unless the entire training area is flat then your pooched)


But I can't hear you because your just aa OCDT :p :D :D

hey you have a string on you uniform.... oh no wait... that your rank badge :D :D baaaaaahaaaaahaaaaa :D


but yes everhone needs to do a lot more shooting, last time I was on the range I was with the OR staff :eek: oh my what a gong show. most of them should have spent a few days in the SAT trainer learning the fundementals of holding and aiming before they let them out on the range with real bullets.

oh back to the article, lots of good points.

I know its an incredible ##### to do any of that stuff, thats one of the reasons I wanted to be be an officer, maybe, just maybe, one day I might be the guy in charge and can tell people to piss off. Sure as hell no one was going to listen to me as a Corporal :D

Besides, I have to have a positive attitude about this stuff, otherwise I would have just offed myself years ago. :D

On the other hand, maybe I am too damn old to get to a position of power now anyways, we shall see. :D

I should have known about a live fire in the field, thats my fault.

That thin bar looked much thicker and better when it was in my hands before it was sewn onto that uniform. I immediately wanted my chevrons back. On the other hand, people seem to actually help me now instead of telling me to piss off and that they are busy.

I remember many years ago when my reserve unit for got their SAT range. We never used it in the 3 years I was there. Spent lots of Tuesday nights out in the cold streets of Oshawa learning "recce skills" though.
 
Field firing is only useful if it has feed back. Reactive targets or steel gongs are needed so a firer knows he has made a hit or miss. Setting up a dozen figure 11s on a hillside and having 50 people hammer away at them is nothing but a waste of ammo.

I love shooting steel.

got to plan and use the Lockheed Martin SITs not bad kit but hardly ever used to their potential, and getting a little old.

And don't shoot them with 25mm or run them over with tracks or let them get burnt in a range fire... some people get really upset... ask me how I know ;) :D

I really want to have them all replaced with the next gen but that cost money and will have to be a national project. 'Oh well we'll just keep attriting the ones we have till we run out' was not what they wanted to hear :D w:h:

ah back to drinking beer

thank god its friday :D
 
We did do a sharpshooter course but it was after 93 as far as I remember. Can't remember when scopes first appeared but the dates would probably be close. It also was just local training as you say, not a proper DM or Sniper qual.

DM courses are now conducted as needed but are not yet formally established in the big army.

yep I seem to recall this around 95 just before the tour that wasn't. Then again in late 96 just before we went to Bosnia. I had the Elcan in battle school but not in Cornwallis so the scopes must of come in around late 93 early 94 cause battle school for me was late May 94 through summer.

DM course, sounds like a course some guy at some HQ cough...cough DC13 cough cough should prupose to the powers that be. :sniper::D
 
Service rifle match is a KD range on a flat ground which takes range estimation and target elevation out of the equation. I am not so sure everyone is capable of field firing at that range if distance is not exactly known - someone will have to spot and adjust fire.

Shooting is easy - range estimation and calling wind are much more difficult beyond 300m, especially with the C79. we shoot at the perfect 400m and 500m, but what if the targets is at 470m? There is more than 3ft drop in between -

We should figure out how many of those Lockheed Martin targets at about 400m remained standing in the last CFSAC defensive firing match. it was not that people could not hit 400m if they knew the targets were at 400m away, it was that they did not know they were 400m away.

That's why we need DM - the optics of a DMR ( like a mildot scope) would allow finer firing solution beyond the 300m point and shoot range.

A little time with the hash marks in the scope and learning hold overs and the average guy has a pretty good chance at hitting without knowing exactly what his distance is.Everything else you mention is just training.I think the point is that it can be done with a rifle.No need to disclose where your MGs are to the enemy.The only reason the taliban let us get away with it is because they are basically untrained rabble.
 
3 MOA at 100m? There are lots of civilian AR15s doing a lot better than that.

What does this mean? Rifleman being issued what is effectively MG ammo with built in dispersion, or a rifle that won't shoot or both?

With a scope like the Elcan I just don't see how anyone can miss out to effective range of the round, assuming the scope mount is rigid of course. Makes me wonder how things would go with just iron sights.

You'd think a mount could be designed that is rigid, after all B&L designed one in the 1950s. But the whole concept is wrong anyway: the adjustments should be in the scope, not the mount, if only for ease and speed of adjustment.

What rubber bands and sloppy scope mounts do for troop morale and confidence I can imagine. Canadian snipers used rubber bands in WWI, so we're coming up for the centenary of the rubber band as well.

Accurate fire vs suppressive fire? Oh please. What's more suppressive than accurate fire?? The US DM who shot down 20 Taliban while rounds were landing all around him, didn't seem to be too affected by "suppressive fire" did he?! On other hand one old guy with a .303 who knew how to shoot would have "suppressed" him in no time.

Perhaps if troops are so busy that they don't have time to clean their rifles and everyone fires their course on the same 15 rifles, it's time something was done to encourage the troops to do some self-training outside regular hours.

Is there a pay incentive for marksmanship skills as there used to be in the British Army at least?

Unlike special forces units, the regular army has endured constant budget cuts resulting in shortages of ammunition. With the ever-increasing list of ‘mandatory’ training, commanders have continued to reduce range time, relying on the annual PWT as an acceptable standard of marksmanship proficiency. The minimum has become the standard!
Coaching, too, has degenerated to the point where rather than spending additional time trying to correct a shooter, range staff either resort to blaming the weapon and replacing it, or issuing more rounds with little or no effective advice so the individual can reshoot that phase of the PWT. So dire is the situation that few in the ranks have engaged targets beyond the 300 metre point, can spot or read swirl, or have ever shot at snap or moving targets. Indeed, there is a declining number of soldiers who have, or know how to, effectively engage the target using iron sights. It has been postulated by some that the CF writ large has lost the critical mass of marksmen capable of passing along the skill. This is no more in evidence than by the need for the 2007, 2008, and 2009 CF International Combat Shooting Teams to hire civilian coaches.

That quote speaks for itself.

Realistically, the 5.56 mm round using the C77 bullet assembly is limited to 400 metres. Beyond 400 metres it begins to loose too much power (read velocity).

And so we come full circle: if suppressive fire, the logic behind the smaller 5.56mm round, has been shown to be of little value in most combat scenarios and the effective range and power is plainly inadequate for open terrain, what is the point of retaining it?

The supposed advantage of more carried rounds per man is mute if the round is not accurate or powerful enough to reach the enemy or to penetrate obstacles. In close quarter scenarios such as urban warfare or fighting through defensive systems, the infantry has a variety of more effective weapons, in particular grenades. A burst capability in a full calibre rifle would cover the "suppressive fire" need, if it exists at all in the form it is currently understood.

For sheer power to kill the enemy, what package is there that exceeds the potential, not to mention the economy, of a soldier carrying 150 rounds of full calibre ammo and rifle that will fire it to 1MOA to at least 1000m? I submit there is no other package that even comes close to having the potential to kill 150 enemy.

The soldiers of the Boer War, WWI, WWII and Korea would be incredulous at the idea of having only two men per section who can engage enemy beyond 4-500m.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56mm
 
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With a scope like the Elcan I just don't see how anyone can miss out to effective range of the round, assuming the scope mount is rigid of course. Makes me wonder how things would go with just iron sights.

Really? First, that scope mount isn't exactly known to be rigid, is it? Try returning fire while being shot at and the target is at an unknown distance. You don't exactly have time to adjust your elevation. Want to aim off? Sounds great until you realize that that thick post completely obscures a target that's 500m out.

I used to think the same way, even considered the ACOG to be inferior because how could a drop compensating reticle be more accurate? It's not, but where it excels is in terms of practical accuracy and speed. Nothing to touch, observe your splash and use the other range marks for quick adjustment. You might not be getting V-Bulls at CFSAC with it but you will be able to engage a man quickly and effectively. Not suggesting the ACOG would be suited to the DM role but it is certainly a better thought out combat optic.

While I would prefer a 7.62mm AR based platform (nice of the army to get rid of those AR10s the Patricia's bought) for the DM role, the C7CT is certainly more suited to the task than the C7A2. The problem is that these don't make their way out to the troops.

If it were up to me each section would get a 7.62mm AR with free floated 16" barrel and a good low powered variable optic like the new Leupold 1-8x CQBSS. The rifle would be that individuals patrol rifle, it wouldn't stick out, and would be suited to most tasks. Of course none of this matters if that individual doesn't receive proper training.

What bothers me the most about our current training is that everyone is focusing on CQB. I do think that it's important but where are they getting the idea that all engagements overseas are at close quarters? I'm sure if they bothered to ask the troops on the ground they'll find that a lot of engagements (the majority?) take place in excess of 200m. After all, isn't this the excuse they used when they got rid of the 500m at CFSAC? It's my understanding that they didn't want anything beyond 300m because everything in Afghanistan is supposedly at close distances?
 
Okay the whole rifle accuracy thing gets old quick. The last C3A1 I used was easily sub moa. At 1000 m in a 10mph cross wind the bullet is still deflected over 8 feet. Nothing replaces training.

If all you need is mechanical accuracy the worst C7 to pass QC will hold minute of man out to 600m (6x3"=18") in anyones hands. That is not the case.
 
What bothers me the most about our current training is that everyone is focusing on CQB. I do think that it's important but where are they getting the idea that all engagements overseas are at close quarters? I'm sure if they bothered to ask the troops on the ground they'll find that a lot of engagements (the majority?) take place in excess of 200m. After all, isn't this the excuse they used when they got rid of the 500m at CFSAC? It's my understanding that they didn't want anything beyond 300m because everything in Afghanistan is supposedly at close distances?

No.

It had nothing to do with Afghanistan. It had to do with the range we currently train shooters to, 300 meters.
 
No.

It had nothing to do with Afghanistan. It had to do with the range we currently train shooters to, 300 meters.

ding ding ding..... that right

I was at that working group when the decision was made. :eek: standard range is 300m with a 100m rundown. I thought it was dumb at the time.

They wanted to go to a range like the US and brits use, one fireing point with reactive targets at 50-300m that pop up, but there was not enough support to make the change.

I'm still trying to get some more 600m ranges ;) :D
 
No.

It had nothing to do with Afghanistan. It had to do with the range we currently train shooters to, 300 meters.

Jeeze looouuueeze.

Ok, I get it. You guys are taking this away from the discussion, which is DM.

My point was that their are plenty of times overseas where being able to engage a target out to 500m (if not beyond) would be beneficial. This isn't able to currently be done effectively because of two things, training and equipment.

The Elcan is a great piece of glass and it can work well on a conventional range if you don't use it the way it was designed. That thick post, while quick to pick up, can obliterate a target at extended ranges, especially one taking cover.

The army doesn't even need to do anything that drastic, an improved optic, like a low powered variable of 1-4x, or 1-6x with an easy to use ballistic reticle (Horus for example) for a DM and perhaps a free float rail on stock C7 would suffice. That, combined with proper training for the individuals would go a long way to improving the capabilities of your standard section who rarely have access to a sniper det.
 
"3 MOA at 100m? There are lots of civilian AR15s doing a lot better than that.

What does this mean? Rifleman being issued what is effectively MG ammo with built in dispersion, or a rifle that won't shoot or both?"

Sorry for the selective quote, knowing your system isnt a million miles from ours I know that there is no such thing as built in dispersion for MG ammo. The weapon that fires Nato standard ammo may have thhe ability to create a beaten zone at distance or an acceptable amount of dispersion when firing bursts at distance but the ammo is bog standard.
There is no way that you could reliably design ammo to meet that criteria which is why it isnt done. Acceptable spread is calculated at the weapon proving grounds during development and set by the boffins. The ammo isnt at fault its the way its being used!
I took the libertyy of posting the original document on the British Army Rumour Service and its been well recieved. The current comments regarding passing annual personal weapons test are unrealistic targets and distances.
"Until the target is completely hidden from view and rounds are coming into your position then it isnt a target. Figure 11's just dont cut the mustard!"
 
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