Canadian barrel minufacturers or distributors

Or .... you just carry on making your half dozen a day quota of carefully crafted barrels and let the masses figure it out.

Some people insist on cheap stuff while some will always prefer quality “ buy once , cry once “ purchases. I used to manufacture quality handmade in Canada products that were eventually knocked off by the offshore copycats and sold at a small fraction of my cost .... let alone my retail price. At first I was perturbed by the underhanded imitations but then realized that our quality eventually won over the customers I wanted anyhow , and yes many of them were from the USA. It was quite liberating to have the cheapskate price bashers move off in search of the lowest common denominators. They were always quick to complain when the Sunny Day Manufacturing Co. products rusted right away but weren’t willing to buck up for the good stuff.
 
trailskinpat said:
Or .... you just carry on making your half dozen a day quota of carefully crafted barrels and let the masses figure it out.

Some people insist on cheap stuff while some will always prefer quality “ buy once , cry once “ purchases. I used to manufacture quality handmade in Canada products that were eventually knocked off by the offshore copycats and sold at a small fraction of my cost .... let alone my retail price. At first I was perturbed by the underhanded imitations but then realized that our quality eventually won over the customers I wanted anyhow , and yes many of them were from the USA. It was quite liberating to have the cheapskate price bashers move off in search of the lowest common denominators. They were always quick to complain when the Sunny Day Manufacturing Co. products rusted right away but weren’t willing to buck up for the good stuff.
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Yup, you get what you pay for.

If one barrel brand is a lot cheaper than others, there's probably a reason for that. And it's not because they found some amazing new manufacturing method or technology that the 100 year old barrel markers haven't found yet. Usually it's a compromise of one or all of the following: material quality, manufacturing technology, QA/QC, personnel experience & skillset, customer service, etc.

You shouldn't expect the same product quality for less money. If you want the best, you have to pay for it. That said, some people don't need or require the best.
 
Agreed kthomas ... I still get a kick out of the entitled few out there that don’t get it and still insist on the best but are only willing to pay the least.
 
JC Custom barrels. I like him for his forthright honesty, and his beautiful hand lapped, profiled before boring, completely custom and incredibly consistent stainless barrels. Oh, and he's got great prices, too!

Best of luck with your search, and please post what you went with, why, and what you received.
 
I get a chuckle at the argument that the more expensive something is, the better it must perform.

I prefer another approach, I am going to use the product that performs to the level that fulfills my need and I will pay whatever that costs.

Seems to be a more sensible and practical approach as many items don't do all that their marketing suggests... regardless of their cost. And there are many times, a less expensive product actually fulfills the need better.

I also get a nice chuckle at the "best barrels come from Wisonsin". Sure, there are some fabulous brands and I use, compete and sell one of these brands.

But according to the PRB, alot of other shooters prefer barrels from Montana, Washington, Virginia, etc. And in other disciplines, Texas and others pop up too.

In Canada, we literally have good options from coast to coast. Look at the shooters who are competing at a very high level and you will see all types, styles, brands, riflings, etc.

The ones that put alot of rds downrange know there is no one "superior" brand or style or anything. There are quality match barrel makers and they comes in all shapes, sizes and locations.

Quality products with solid service and support that perform well in competition or field.... that to me, is a good brand to use.

And saving money along the way, well, that is just being smart.

YMMV.

Jerry
 
Any match barrel from any manufacturer is gonna be way better than the factory garbage pipes that come on cheap factory rifles...
There's also very few shooters who truly have the shooting skills and setup required to outperform most brands of match barrels made these days.
 
Mystic Precision said:
I get a chuckle at the argument that the more expensive something is, the better it must perform.

I prefer another approach, I am going to use the product that performs to the level that fulfills my need and I will pay whatever that costs.

Seems to be a more sensible and practical approach as many items don't do all that their marketing suggests... regardless of their cost. And there are many times, a less expensive product actually fulfills the need better.

I also get a nice chuckle at the "best barrels come from Wisonsin". Sure, there are some fabulous brands and I use, compete and sell one of these brands.

But according to the PRB, alot of other shooters prefer barrels from Montana, Washington, Virginia, etc. And in other disciplines, Texas and others pop up too.

In Canada, we literally have good options from coast to coast. Look at the shooters who are competing at a very high level and you will see all types, styles, brands, riflings, etc.

The ones that put alot of rds downrange know there is no one "superior" brand or style or anything. There are quality match barrel makers and they comes in all shapes, sizes and locations.

Quality products with solid service and support that perform well in competition or field.... that to me, is a good brand to use.

And saving money along the way, well, that is just being smart.

YMMV.

Jerry
Click to expand...

Any reason for me not to buy an IBI if I'm doing a build?
 
Mystic Precision said:
I get a chuckle at the argument that the more expensive something is, the better it must perform.

I prefer another approach, I am going to use the product that performs to the level that fulfills my need and I will pay whatever that costs.

Seems to be a more sensible and practical approach as many items don't do all that their marketing suggests... regardless of their cost. And there are many times, a less expensive product actually fulfills the need better.

I also get a nice chuckle at the "best barrels come from Wisonsin". Sure, there are some fabulous brands and I use, compete and sell one of these brands.

But according to the PRB, alot of other shooters prefer barrels from Montana, Washington, Virginia, etc. And in other disciplines, Texas and others pop up too.

In Canada, we literally have good options from coast to coast. Look at the shooters who are competing at a very high level and you will see all types, styles, brands, riflings, etc.

The ones that put alot of rds downrange know there is no one "superior" brand or style or anything. There are quality match barrel makers and they comes in all shapes, sizes and locations.

Quality products with solid service and support that perform well in competition or field.... that to me, is a good brand to use.

And saving money along the way, well, that is just being smart.

YMMV.

Jerry
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You know what, I agree with a lot of what is being said here.

If you get all the criteria that you are seeking, AND at a lesser price than alternatives, you would be absolutely silly to spend more money. I 100% agree and support you on that. I still hold the strong personal belief that in most cases, you get what you pay for. There are reasons why some products are cheaper than others. As consumers, we need to do due diligence to find out what we are getting for our money, and justifying how our dollars are spent.

Unfortunately, too many shooters and gunsmiths that I personally know in my inner Canadian precision rifle community have had issues with certain Canadian made products and gunsmithing services (including Canadian barrel manufacturers). I understand trying to support your local businesses and trying to save some money, but sometimes going cheaper costs more in the long run. I know multiple people that have had 6+ months and hundreds to thousands of dollars of set backs by trying to go cheap and Canadian (sh*tty bedding jobs, bad chamber jobs & general sloppy gunsmithing work, barrel issues, etc). Sadly, by using products and services that are commonly recommended on this forum. I've heard enough that I personally wouldn't risk the time and expense, nor would I recommend to others a lot of the Canadian barrel manufacturers. But that is just my small hemisphere of the Canadian shooting community.

If others are having some good successes and saving some money along the way, that's excellent. And they should continue to do so. I hope that the precision rifle community grows in Canada, and as such the number and quality of manufacturers grows. In the end, we all win as consumers in that case. But we also can't settle for mediocrity just because something is Canadian (and that isn't always the case, we do have some awesome Canadian manufacturers in the sport).

I don't work in the industry or make money off of anything in this industry, including Wisconsin barrels :p. So no sweat off my back if people aren't buying Wisconsin barrels. And honestly, I'm not suggesting that everyone starts buying Wisconsin made barrels. I certainly don't want to discourage someone from using a local and cheaper alternative if it's working great for them. If you are getting everything you need out of a locally produced product, and saving money, then it would be silly for anyone to change. I think that's great.

P.S. - yes, it's not just Wisconsin based barrel manufacturers that are making the best barrels, there certainly are exceptions to that. There just happens to be a large majority of excellent barrel makers concentrated in that small geographical region. Not all of my barrels are made in Wisconsin. And I also wouldn't take the PRB list as gospel. Those sponsored shooters jump around manufacturers like a ### addict at a whore house.
 
Tenguns said:
Proven by who?
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If you go with a good manufacturer, there's really no precision difference between cut and button rifle barrels. Button barrel technology is really good these days, that I don't think it's fair to say that cut rifles are always better than button barrels. Plenty of records set by both types of barrels in the bench rest community.

The main thing is to go with a good barrel manufacturer. I personally use both button and cut barrel rifles.
 
I think you mean by whom. The answer is by literally 99% of benchrest shooters who use cut-rifled barrels. BR is the most demanding discipline in which only the best will do.

This article explains a lot: http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/articles/bmart.htm

For those less academically inclined, a quote from Dr. Kolbe's article: " I believe that you are more likely to get a top of the line tack driver by cut rifling a barrel than by any other method. Bench rest shooters in the States have rediscovered the cut rifled barrel and cut rifled barrel makers, who have been quietly persisting over the years with this demanding technique, find shooters at the very highest levels of accuracy banging on the doors of their barrel shops."

It is interesting that cut-rifling was invented in Nurnberg in 1495. Didn't see it at Germaniche National Museum in that wonderful city last week.
Nurnberg - Obermeyer - Krieger - Bartlein - connection?

Best regards,

Peter
 
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Tenguns said:
Proven by who?
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Button rifling was invented to really speed up the rifling process and make it easier/cheaper.
It was not invented to make more accurate barrels than cut rifling.
Yes it can make good competitive barrels, but the better average for accuracy/stability still goes to cut rifling.

JC has a really good process.
 
peterdobson said:
And JC's barrels are cut-rifled, which has been proved to be superior.
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I did stumble across this today, which I thought was an interesting read (stolen from accurateshooter.com forum):

FrankG said:
A good start and I will add to this.....and this has been beaten to death.....and before I get deep into this I will say all barrel making methods can make a very good barrel and can make garbage. It goes back to the barrel maker paying attention the best they can to all aspects of they're manufacturing process.

Button rifling work hardens the bore so on average a button barrel (barrel life wise) will not last as long as a cut barrel. On average the cut barrel will go 15% to as much as 25% longer in barrel life. This isn't just me saying this or that either....for one it's what I've always seen and also based on actual data from ammunition test barrels that we make for bullet makers, ammo makers etc....They keep exact round counts and load data and test the barrels in controlled conditions. Even when the button barrel and cut barrel where made out of the same lot of steel.

Twist rate uniformity....cut barrel wins the consistency hands down. Some button makers are trying to help guide the rotation of the button. The twist is built into the button. What happens is if the button hits a hard spot or soft spot in the steel usually it will slow the button down. The button can speed back up to what it is suppose to be doing for the twist but when this happens either way you end up with a non uniform twist or a barrel with a negative twist rate. This leads to accuracy issues and to me the barrel is more load temperamental as to what it will shoot etc...I've seen button barrels where the twist rate went slower towards the muzzle to the tune of as much as .75 of a twist.

Bore and groove size diameters and uniformity. You can get a button barrel with a uniform bore and groove size but again the consistency goes to a cut barrel. Why? Button rifling is a cold swagging process. Button rifling doesn't remove the material when making the grooves it displaces the material. This is a common misconception. Where as cut rifling we physically cut the groove away. During button rifling the steel will expand and relax as the button goes down the barrel. This also goes back to work hardening the bore also. The button maker if they use a different button or gets a different batch of steel or uses a steel with a different diameter will have to play with button sizes. The more uniform the bore and groove sizes are it will only help the accuracy of the barrel and velocities and pressures. We just inspected (in the last 6 weeks) a couple of button rifled ammunition test barrels. The ammo maker sent them to us to look at and gauge them because our barrels where running right on the money. They couldn't figure out why they where getting pressures a full 8000psi above max. and couldn't get the velocity. I told them my guess was the bores where under size. Sure enough the bore and groove size where both a full .0005" under size and it wasn't just for one barrel either. It was for a few of them. This is why some button makers offer different grades of barrels. Uniformity.

Also they have to button rifle the barrels as I said before as a blank (no contour). Any variance in the o.d. of the barrel will effect the uniformity of the bore size as well. They button it as a blank and then have to restress relieve the blank and then they contour the barrel. It's the only way you can come close to doing a consistent bore size on them. The other problem you have is residual stress in the blank. No barrel maker can measure for stress in the blank. When the barrel gets contoured and during the turning operation the turning work if it hits a stress point will relieve the stress and this will cause the bore to open up on you. Again goes back to consistency. The last place you want the bore to go sour is at the muzzles crown. If this opens up when the muzzle is threaded and or just cut and crowned it will/can have a negative impact on accuracy. Same goes for fluting. This is why some button barrel makers say if you flute they're barrels it voids any warranty etc... We contour our barrels primarily before reaming and rifling. If we are going to lose the barrel due to any residual stress it will happen here for us. With cut rifling not inducing any stress into the blank we don't have the problem with bore size uniformity and this includes fluting the barrel after it's rifled etc....

Here is a couple of good videos (we didn't make them and had nothing to do with them)....

The first one below shows the muzzle going sour/opening up during/after threading. All of the first barrels are button rifled. The last two are ours. The point of the video isn't to hack on any barrel makers but to make the muzzle thread diameters as large as possible to help fight the bores going sour.

[video]https://youtu.be/###_YXzJJOU[/video] - My add: this video won't hyperlink because CGN has stupid censorship rules - the three ### is C U m if you want to look at the video for yourself.

The next one is a button barrel. Watch real closely right about the 8 second mark when the button goes into the barrel. Watch the face of the barrel blank deform. You can see it better starting at the 6:20 mark and also look at the face of the barrel at the 6:40 mark. You can see the steel deform.


Also at the 5:10 mark they talk about straightening the steel bars. Bad! You never want to straighten a barrel blank. Especially after it's been finished. Trying to straighten the barrel blanks induces more stress into the steel and some wonder why the POI shift on some barrels! Especially as they heat up. It will work against you.

With all of this being said...when we we're starting up we we're offered jobs at a couple of different button barrel makers. I politely declined the offer. One asked as to why? I said we know the short comings of a button made barrel. I cannot work at a company where I don't believe in the product. I couldn't talk to a customer or look them in the eye knowing and or feeling we are not making the best product out there.

It all goes back to consistency. The more consistent the bore and groove sizes are over the length of the barrel, the more uniform the twist, the straighter the barrel blank and the more stress free it is the more forgiving the barrel is going to be. No way around it. Again a button barrel can be a very good barrel I just don't see the consistency from one to the next like a cut barrel is.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
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Frank is a sharp guy, and obviously knows his barrels. I respect his opinion, and I have no doubt there is a lot of truth to his statements above. However, if you get a top quality button rifled barrel (I.E Benchmark) and compare it to a top quality cut rifle barrel (Krieger, Bartlein, Hawkhill, Brux, Rock Creek), I would be surprised if you found much difference. Hardly any (if any at all) that would be noticeable to the shooter. I bet there is a lot more difference in the end quality of a barrel between a top quality barrel maker and a middle of the road/budget barrel maker than there is button cut vs button rifling. The better barrel makers will have better machines, manufacturing processes, labor force skillset and knowledge, QA/QC processes and technology (I.E. - the ability to test batches of steel to ensure that they don't get a "bum" batch of steel from time to time), CS, etc. These are the nuances in the barrel making process that would make the biggest difference in the end.

Most of my barrels are cut rifle barrels (Krieger, Hawkhill, Brux), but I do have some Benchmark barrels (button rifling), and I would be really surprised if any shooter on this board would be able to distinguish an accuracy/precision difference between my barrels. I know I sure can't.
 
31120871_10209596339145926_3328913363106267136_n.jpg

Well, this US shooter has done very well in 2018 using button rifled barrels made by Shilen. At this match, he may have set a new World SR BR Agg record. Not sure if it has been approved yet. The barrel had the then new R4G rifling style.

He did back up his win with another a little bit later with his backup rifle also with the same brand of barrel.

I don't follow all the ins and outs of SR BR in the US but some are definitely doing well with button rifled barrels... as others are doing well with cut rifled barrels.

And unless things have dramatically changed the last few years, the top 3 BR50 brands in no particular order included Lilja, Benchmark and Shilen.

So I don't see any functional difference between the two styles of manf. This debate has been going on long before I got on the scene, over the 20+ years I have been in competition, and will continue on long after I am gone.

Pick a quality brand, work up some good ammo and enjoy.

If you feel a preference to whatever tech, have at it. Half the sport is in your mind anyways so whatever helps your mental game.

Jerry

PS - I sell products from manfs that use either style of rifling... I compete with both. I get on the podium with both... whatever makes you happy.
 

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Lou is a friend of mine and has a rail gun in a underground tunnel to test barrels,

Lou was also instrumental in the testing of the Berger column bullets after I introduced him to Eric steckler
in the barn at the super shoot at Kelblys inc

Mystic Precision said:
View attachment 256624

Well, this US shooter has done very well in 2018 using button rifled barrels made by Shilen. At this match, he may have set a new World SR BR Agg record. Not sure if it has been approved yet. The barrel had the then new R4G rifling style.

He did back up his win with another a little bit later with his backup rifle also with the same brand of barrel.

I don't follow all the ins and outs of SR BR in the US but some are definitely doing well with button rifled barrels... as others are doing well with cut rifled barrels.

And unless things have dramatically changed the last few years, the top 3 BR50 brands in no particular order included Lilja, Benchmark and Shilen.

So I don't see any functional difference between the two styles of manf. This debate has been going on long before I got on the scene, over the 20+ years I have been in competition, and will continue on long after I am gone.

Pick a quality brand, work up some good ammo and enjoy.

If you feel a preference to whatever tech, have at it. Half the sport is in your mind anyways so whatever helps your mental game.

Jerry

PS - I sell products from manfs that use either style of rifling... I compete with both. I get on the podium with both... whatever makes you happy.
Click to expand...
 
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