Canadian Infantry in battle with the 12th SS

[Dakk]

Germany and the Soviet Union invaded Poland together, Britain only declares war on Germany which began WW2...

Nope. Germany invaded Poland first, they didn't invade together, and Hitler invaded Poland with full knowledge of the consequences; that Britain & France would be brought into the war. The pact between Britain and Poland was signed before the invasion, and the German invasion was even postponed because of it.

The fact is, one of the primary causes of WWII was the Treaty of Versailles, and one of the primary 'sticking points' for the German nation was that they lost the Danzig corridor. The start of WWII is thus offically marked by the German invasion of Poland, which triggered the involvement of Poland's allies.

The mistake you're making is to equate a declaration of war with the start of a war itself. By that logic, the US was never involved in the Vietnam War, because they never declared war on North Vietnam or the Viet Cong.

Likewise, war between Japan and the US started with the attack on Pearl Harbor, not when the official declaration of war was made by either party.

 

[lister]

Perhaps you should ask the obvious question, WHY did Germany invade Poland? On a whim? Lebensraum? Have you ever heard of Danzig? How about Jozef Beck? Remember that a good sized portion of the Polish population in western Poland was German, as parts of Germany had been both given to Poland by Versailles, and taken by Poland militarily. Methinks a little research is in order on your part.

I wasn't writing a historical novel or speculating on Germany's motivation, but are you saying that the invasion of Poland by the Germans was justified? I think I had this convo with a couple other guys on here the other day.
For the record, I don't like Nazi sympathizers, and you sound like one.

 

[Dakk]

I wasn't writing a historical novel or speculating on Germany's motivation, but are you saying that the invasion of Poland by the Germans was justified? I think I had this convo with a couple other guys on here the other day.
For the record, I don't like Nazi sympathizers, and you sound like one.

I think he was just pointing out that there were other factors involved. The Danzig corridor was formerly German, and thus many German people lived there, and things weren't 'rosey' long before the actual German invasion. So some people might have seen the German invasion as a form of liberation, though of course we know Hitler was just using it as an excuse (they did a lot more than just liberate the Danzig corridor).

Btw guys... its kind of pointless to argue about 'who started it'. There's lots of blame to go around everywhere.

 

[AdrianM]

Id be interested in reading that, what's the title?

It's called 'Every Man Dies Alone' by Hans Fallada. I haven't started it yet.

You know, this thread is a pretty good read other than the insults and personal attacks. Funny thing about internet forums...they're all the same in some ways...even the good ones.

 

[MetricMan]

I wasn't writing a historical novel or speculating on Germany's motivation, but are you saying that the invasion of Poland by the Germans was justified? I think I had this convo with a couple other guys on here the other day.
For the record, I don't like Nazi sympathizers, and you sound like one.

Nazi sympathizer? Hardly. Just someone that knows how to read.

 

[Capt.Canuck]

It's called 'Every Man Dies Alone' by Hans Fallada. I haven't started it yet.

You know, this thread is a pretty good read other than the insults and personal attacks. Funny thing about internet forums...they're all the same in some ways...even the good ones.

Sounds like a worthwhile read, thank you.

http://www.amazon.ca/Every-Dies-Alone-Hans-Fallada/dp/1933633638

 

[Norincodude]

One book I enjoyed from years ago was an Alsatian (French / German) account called "The Forgotten Soldier" by Guy Sajer. German Army campaign on the Eastern Front.

On the topic of the practically non-existent French Resistance. "L'Armee du Crime" (Army of Crime) - a 2009 movie about A French Resistance cell made up of foreigners living in France. Finally an acknowledgement in France that the mythical French Resistance, when it did bare its teeth, was heavily composed of non-Frenchmen who had the balls to fight the Nazis. This in contrast to the cliche films and TV shows of the 1960s where the French Resistance (composed of beret-wearing Frenchmen) was always saving the day.

Canadian and Allied soldiers died to save France in WWII and then that bastard De Gaulle has the fvcking nerve to come to Quebec in the 1960s and proclaim "Vive le Quebec Libre"..... sorry, rant over.

 

[JRW (QOR)]

It's called 'Every Man Dies Alone' by Hans Fallada. I haven't started it yet.

You know, this thread is a pretty good read other than the insults and personal attacks. Funny thing about internet forums...they're all the same in some ways...even the good ones.

Thanks, will check it out. I just ignore them. It's part of a free society, I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

[Mike Webb]

One book I enjoyed from years ago was an Alsatian (French / German) account called "The Forgotten Soldier" by Guy Sajer. German Army campaign on the Eastern Front.

On the topic of the practically non-existent French Resistance. "L'Armee du Crime" (Army of Crime) - a 2009 movie about A French Resistance cell made up of foreigners living in France. Finally an acknowledgement in France that the mythical French Resistance, when it did bare its teeth, was heavily composed of non-Frenchmen who had the balls to fight the Nazis. This in contrast to the cliche films and TV shows of the 1960s where the French Resistance (composed of beret-wearing Frenchmen) was always saving the day.

Canadian and Allied soldiers died to save France in WWII and then that bastard De Gaulle has the fvcking nerve to come to Quebec in the 1960s and proclaim "Vive le Quebec Libre"..... sorry, rant over.

I had an uncle who fought in France in the Canadian Army in WW2. He said when they saw the French Maqui running about waving weapons they always relaxed because they knew there were no Germans in the area.

 

[Coyote Ugly]

[youtube]7AEdwUnLunE[/youtube]

 

[CousinTony]

George Patton was put in charge of Germany after the war.

"Actually, the Germans are the only decent people left in Europe. it's a choice between them and the Russians. I prefer the Germans."

http://www.rense.com/general85/pats.htm

 

[JRW (QOR)]

George Patton was put in charge of Germany after the war.

"Actually, the Germans are the only decent people left in Europe. it's a choice between them and the Russians. I prefer the Germans."

http://www.rense.com/general85/pats.htm

How different the world would have been if the powers had listened to Patton and re-armed the Germans to push the Russians out. That decision to ignore Patton killed tens of millions at the hands of the USSR bullies.

 

[Gibbs505]

How different the world would have been if the powers had listened to Patton and re-armed the Germans to push the Russians out. That decision to ignore Patton killed tens of millions at the hands of the USSR bullies.

Yeah, right, like that was going to happen! After fighting the whole war??? You have to be joking!

 

[Dakk]

Yeah, right, like that was going to happen! After fighting the whole war??? You have to be joking!

Of course, that wouldn't have happened. Besides which, Germany was in ruins and people were hurting. However, don't forget that even in 1945 while the war with Germany was still going on but winding down, the US was far more concerned about the USSR than they were Germany. The Cold War really began where WWII left off.

The threat of a Soviet invasion of Japanese held territory was a primary factors in trying to get Japan to surrender earlier; thus one of the reasons for the decsion to use atomic weapons against Japan.

 

[RRCo.]

Germany didn't start WW2 though... Britain did.

Did anyone miss that?

All the usual apologists showing up I see.

Your uncle Adolf said it best: "what good fortune for rulers that men do not think."

He would have known.

Versailles was one of the leading causes of WW2, no doubt. The main component of the treaty seemed to be French vindictiveness towards Germany. Germany's industry was gutted by the treaty and outrageous reparations bills were expected to be shouldered by the German people. Hitler wanted it all but he was smart enough to know Germany could not fight everyone at once at the time. It's kind of odd that posters here with the warped interpretation of European history have Germanic handles. I hope some of you guys aren't thumbing through "Mein Kampf" every night before you go to sleep.

And what the French and Belgians got out of Germany might have been just enough to replace what was systematically and completely stripped out of occupied France and Belgium. And what couldn't be stripped out had been thoroughly and systematically destroyed. When 1/3 of your male population between 18 and 40 has been killed - that's just the killed mind you, not the wounded or mentally ruined - you might be a little "vengeful" too.

Most of Germany's reparations were never paid. They hyper-inflated their way out of them and then Uncle Sam underwrote most of the rest in the 20s and 30s. Never stops the self-pitying blubbering however. The French on the other hand paid their reparation from 1870 in gold and in full. The British financed that to try and keep the peace as they did in 1914.

I've posted all this before chapter and verse from German sources. It makes no difference, the self-pity and self-importance is monumental.

 

[RRCo.]

It's called 'Every Man Dies Alone' by Hans Fallada. I haven't started it yet.

You know, this thread is a pretty good read other than the insults and personal attacks. Funny thing about internet forums...they're all the same in some ways...even the good ones.

Before you read that, you can read "Little Man What Now" by the same author.

Perhaps you should ask the obvious question, WHY did Germany invade Poland? On a whim? Lebensraum? Have you ever heard of Danzig? How about Jozef Beck? Remember that a good sized portion of the Polish population in western Poland was German, as parts of Germany had been both given to Poland by Versailles, and taken by Poland militarily. Methinks a little research is in order on your part.

Yes, it's terrible how poor Germany suffered after WWI. But there is a price for starting wars and then losing them isn't there? No worse than the treatment Germany imposed on France in 1870 either.

And all those Germans who had settled in Poland...yes tough luck indeed when the Poles get their country back. Someone cue the violins. And while the Poles had been treated with kindly forbearance by the Prussians all that time, they had returned the favour with every kind of oppression against their "Germanic" minorities hadn't they? I'm sure you'll provide details shortly.

Now Adolf and friends planned to exterminate the Poles completely, along with the Russians, Slavs in general, the Jews, the Gypsies etc. etc. This is what caused those noble heroes of the July 20th movement to rise up and wring their hands about how Germany was going to lose the war. Except that not one of them was willing to go out with a bang and take Adolf with him. Not one.

The real enigma of German history is how a nation can so conspicuously and repeatedly fail to understand the viewpoint of any of its neighbours and the actual situation in which it finds itself. But then of course when you consider that no one else's viewpoint matters anyway, you don't make much effort to understand.

 

[Juster]

Did anyone miss that?

Yup, Germany and our Russian allies started WWII. Neither were good at contingency planning.

 

[RRCo.]

Yup, Germany and our Russian allies started WWII. Neither were good at contingency planning.

On the contrary, OKW and the Nazi leadership were preparing and planning for war by 1944/45. Hitler didn't want to wait that long.

Some have made the case that Stalin planned to attack in 1941/42, but no one has ever read Stalin's mind and he could just as easily have been bluffing.

In the event, he certainly wasn't going to attack after France folded up in 1940 so unexpectedly, so I don't see how anyone can say the Soviets helped to start WWII. The helped by their existence as a communist state, which many in the German military leadership were determined to destroy even before the Nazis came to power.

Nice little mess they made for themselves by sending Lenin and friends back in that sealed train in 1918 with a generous helping of gold.

Karma?

 

[Dakk]

Part of me wants to add a comment or two... I love history... but I feel like I'd just be...

 

[Juster]

I don't see how anyone can say the Soviets helped to start WWII.

They invaded Poland in 1939. Part of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, WWII, for the starting of.

Contingency planning means having a plan for what to do when things go wrong. Hitler's plan B was to scream at everybody.