Canadian Infantry in battle with the 12th SS

RRCo. said:
I can think of one or two other religious group who took the same line in Canada in WWII. Happy to enjoy the benefits of freedom, but not so happy to risk life and limp preserving same.
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Freedom? In Canada they were put in work camps. I'll also mention that their counter parts in Germany were arrested by the thousands for refusing compulsory military service in Hitler's army. Many were killed by the Nazis; some beheaded, others froze to death while being made to stand in the freezing cold with water poured over them. So tread very carefully when you insinuate that they were objecting because they didn't want to put their lives on the line. The fact is, if everyone made such a galant stand, there wouldn't have been a war at all. Yes, that is an idealistic notion, I realize. My point simply being that conscientious objectors were not avoiding risk to life and limb.

There is also another way to look at the matter. You may be believe that soldiers died, sacrificing their lives, to preserve freedoms such as the freedom to choose your beliefs. What does it say if you then step in and take away that freedom they fought for?
 
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Earlier this week we went out for lunch with a local group. My wife and I happened to sit with 2 members who had both emmigrated from Germany during the 1950s and who were 5-6 yrs old in 1945. Both still had vivid memories of their lives in Germany at that time and during the immediate post-war years. It was fascinating to listen to them and learn how they and their families had been impacted and how their experiences have colored their lives to the present day.

In both cases they put their survival down to the determination and efforts of their mothers. One had been bombed out of the family home in Hamburg and recalls his mother bartering for shelter and food which was very scarce to non-existant. His father was a member of the Waffen SS and remained in US custody until 1948. The other person had abandoned everything and made the trek eastward from Breslau to escape the advancing Russians. Again, her mother was her saviour as her father was in the Army and was eventually captured by the British. Neither had anything good to say about the Nazi regieme and their stories served to remind me of just how much devastation the Nazi era had brought to the Gemans themselves, to say nothing of the millions of people in the other countries which were invaded.

In the face of all the evidence it still confounds me to hear people defending any aspect of the Nazi regieme or it's actions. There is nothing romantic or praise-worthy about it. This line of thinking needs to be stomped on whenever and wherever it rears it's ugly head.
 
purple said:
Earlier this week we went out for lunch with a local group. My wife and I happened to sit with 2 members who had both emmigrated from Germany during the 1950s and who were 5-6 yrs old in 1945. Both still had vivid memories of their lives in Germany at that time and during the immediate post-war years. It was fascinating to listen to them and learn how they and their families had been impacted and how their experiences have colored their lives to the present day.

In both cases they put their survival down to the determination and efforts of their mothers. One had been bombed out of the family home in Hamburg and recalls his mother bartering for shelter and food which was very scarce to non-existant. His father was a member of the Waffen SS and remained in US custody until 1948. The other person had abandoned everything and made the trek eastward from Breslau to escape the advancing Russians. Again, her mother was her saviour as her father was in the Army and was eventually captured by the British. Neither had anything good to say about the Nazi regieme and their stories served to remind me of just how much devastation the Nazi era had brought to the Gemans themselves, to say nothing of the millions of people in the other countries which were invaded.

In the face of all the evidence it still confounds me to hear people defending any aspect of the Nazi regieme or it's actions. There is nothing romantic or praise-worthy about it. This line of thinking needs to be stomped on whenever and wherever it rears it's ugly head.
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Exactly right! People who try to claim that the Nazis and the Allies were the same need some serious mental help. In war sh*t happens but the Germans were responsible for a lot more sh*t than the Allies. A good percentage of those Germans who reviled Hitler after the war were standing on sidewalks Seigheiling with the rest of the Nazis in 1938-1942. My uncle served with the Canadian Army in France and Holland during WW2 and a lot of the things that he saw the Germans do were simply monstrous. Historical revisionists can twist things however they want but HE WAS THERE and I got it firsthand.
 
Mike Webb said:
Exactly right! People who try to claim that the Nazis and the Allies were the same need some serious mental help. In war sh*t happens but the Germans were responsible for a lot more sh*t than the Allies. A good percentage of those Germans who reviled Hitler after the war were standing on sidewalks Seigheiling with the rest of the Nazis in 1938-1942. My uncle served with the Canadian Army in France and Holland during WW2 and a lot of the things that he saw the Germans do were simply monstrous. Historical revisionists can twist things however they want but HE WAS THERE and I got it firsthand.
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You are forgetting that the Soviets under Stalin killed more people than the Germans. They were part of the Allied forces. I also have relatives and friends of the family who experienced the monstrous things the Soviets did.
 
Mike Webb said:
Exactly right! People who try to claim that the Nazis and the Allies were the same need some serious mental help. In war sh*t happens but the Germans were responsible for a lot more sh*t than the Allies. A good percentage of those Germans who reviled Hitler after the war were standing on sidewalks Seigheiling with the rest of the Nazis in 1938-1942. My uncle served with the Canadian Army in France and Holland during WW2 and a lot of the things that he saw the Germans do were simply monstrous. Historical revisionists can twist things however they want but HE WAS THERE and I got it firsthand.
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I got it first hand from both family who served in the Wehrmacht and the Canadian Army. I grow tired of these threads because it is impossible to teach someone a lesson they believe they have already learned.
 
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No need for the sarcasm, Reece. If you disagree, fine, it's a free country. I grow tired of these threads as well. There seem to be an alarming number of people who are unaware that Germany started WW2, invaded sovereign nations, robbed them blind, committed genocide on a vast scale, beat, tortured and murdered thousands and there is always somebody trying to excuse it or worse, claim it didn't happen. Yes, the western Allies also committed war crimes, no doubt, but the bottom line is I have NO sympathy for Germany. Just like the schoolyard fights where one boy gets pummelled and the pummeller tells the teacher, " Well, he started it."
 
Mike Webb said:
Germany started WW2, invaded sovereign nations, robbed them blind, committed genocide on a vast scale, beat, tortured and murdered thousands and there is always somebody trying to excuse it or worse, claim it didn't happen.
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The Soviet Union and Germany started WW2, invaded sovereign nations, robbed them blind, committed genocide on a vast scale, beat, tortured and murdered thousands and there is always somebody trying to excuse it or worse, claim it didn't happen.

"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Non-Aggression_between_Germany_and_the_Soviet_Union#Implementing_the_division_of_Central_and_Eastern_Europe
 
Mike Webb said:
Exactly right! People who try to claim that the Nazis and the Allies were the same need some serious mental help.
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Well that's basically the mistake you and many others are making. Listen to yourself... 'Nazis and Allies'. The 'Nazis' were a political organization for the most part, with some military representation in the form of the SS. Yes, many Germans were Nazis supporters, particularly early on. But not all Germans were Nazis... yet somehow people like yourself continue to use the word 'Nazi' interchangably with 'German' (or 'German soldier').

My family fought the Germans in WWII. But I'm not about to throw my support behind the wholesale slaughter of reason by propagating ignorance, such as the idea that all Germans were Nazis. Besides that, the opposing force to the 'Allies' was the 'Axis'.

To be frank, propagating ignorance, and fomenting hatred is exactly what the Nazis did. When I see people thinking ill of the German people, I can't help remembering The Treaty of Versailles, and I think about that saying... "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it".
 
Dakk said:
Well that's basically the mistake you and many others are making. Listen to yourself... 'Nazis and Allies'. The 'Nazis' were a political organization for the most part, with some military representation in the form of the SS. Yes, many Germans were Nazis supporters, particularly early on. But not all Germans were Nazis... yet somehow people like yourself continue to use the word 'Nazi' interchangably with 'German soldier'.

My family fought the Germans in WWII. But I'm not about to throw my support behind the wholesale slaughter of reason by propagating ignorance, such as the idea that all Germans were Nazis.

Besides that, the opposing force to the 'Allies' was the 'Axis'.
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Must redirect here. Yes, the Nazi party was a political socialist party. However during their short and unfortunate {understatement} reign, if you were German and not supportive of the Party you quickly found your neighbors turning your name into the authorities and you would be arrested. If you were German, you were either a Nazi or you were imprisoned. These are the facts. To this point there is no reasonable or rational argument...are we done yet?:mad:
 
plinker 777 said:
If you were German, you were either a Nazi or you were imprisoned.
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Nope. Totally untrue. My wife's uncle's father is German, and served in the Kriegsmarine during WWII. Not a Nazi.

If you think the Germans had the resources or will to round up every German who wasn't a Nazi supporter, you're nuts. There were many Germans who weren't Nazi supporters, and even many who disliked the Nazis, but as long as they stayed silent, they weren't arrested. Only those who actively opposed the Nazis, by word or deed would have been arrested.

My family on my mother's side lived under German occupation. So I am familiar with circumstances and I know the German military didn't have the resources to weed out all who were opposed to the Nazis, or even the German occupation itself.
 
Dakk said:
Argument for what? That the Nazis were 'Bad' with a captial 'B'? You'll get no argument from me on that.

But on the points I'm raising, that not all Germans were Nazis, you haven't got a leg to stand on.
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I'd agree
At a risk of throwing fuel on the fire, I've read that Wehrmacht soldiers often had no use, even hatred towards the SS.
Branding all Germans of that era Nazi's would be...assuming.
You know that that means...
 
hitler-watermelon.gif
 
tokguy said:
I'd agree
At a risk of throwing fuel on the fire, I've read that Wehrmacht soldiers often had no use, even hatred towards the SS.
Branding all Germans of that era Nazi's would be...assuming.
You know that that means...
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Well, that really shouldn't be seen as 'adding fuel to the fire'. I think some of what's going on with this thread is that comments made in the past are being misread or misinterpretted.

This thread's original intention was focused on actions between the Canadians and SS, but anything that went on between them pales in comparison to some of the stuff that occurred in the Pacific threater, or the Eastern Front. Both Soviet and German armies commited terrible crimes against each others POWs, and civilians. As far as maltreatment of POWs, the Japanese were probably the worst. But the worst of all, was what was done to innocent cvilians.

My grandfather was a police officer under German occupation, and he helped the Danish resistance ferry Jews out of the country to Sweden, something he was very proud of. So I know just how terrible the Nazis were. The really horrible crimes were those committed on civilians. They were the only innocents.

I actually have a pro-resistance journal I found among my grandfather's things. It has some pretty interesting 'comic' illustrations that take jabs at Hitler and the German occupation. Here's a sample:

http://photoshare.shaw.ca/image/c/8/e/249638/haandbog002-0.jpg?rev=0

http://photoshare.shaw.ca/image/c/8/e/249638/haandbog003-0.jpg?rev=0
 
Dakk said:
. As far as maltreatment of POWs, the Japanese were probably the worst. But the worst of all, was what was done to innocent civilians.
]
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Yes, Japs viewed surrendering as being totally coward and an act of treason. Civilians were spoil of war to be mistreated and disposed of as they see fit.
 
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