Canadian IPSC Classification System

yeah I just went and checked myself, no current entries for Fang. my fault as I didn't respond to an email about swapping my Slavex entries over to Fang.
not a big concern for me, I just thought that someone else should have got the unclassified trophy, a newer shooter for instance. I'm one of the few who doesn't give a lick about my actual class I'm only at a match to have fun and maybe win. If I don't do the latter all I care about is the fun. which I seem to be pretty damn good at doing..........
 
My ICS is B not because I'm a sandbagger, but becuuse i hit a ruff patch when ICS was popular and every score is used in the system regardless of how low it is. If ICS had some of the rules the USPSA sytem used I'd still be over classed as a GM since the stages didn't have a HHF to start with. There you have two massive issues with the ICS system that were present on day one and never fixed.
I declared M because thats what I am in USPSA and IPSC ont. If you win your class you win it regradless of what place you finish overall. If an A wins high overall then they deserve the top A award aswell. Not a fan of the no double dipping approach.
The unclassed awards were kind of odd to see, but thats up to the MD's to decide
 
It has nothing to do with his first name. If the Alias was current and the first name (or last name for that matter) was different...ICS would give an exception report comparing the two (your WinMss database vs the ICS database) entries against that Alias. It happens once in a while...I just use that report to correct the info.

In this case..."Fang" came back as "not found" because there were no classifier stages against it. It wouldn't matter what he used for a first name.

As far as I can see, there is two entries in the ICS system: Robert - Slavex (with all his ics entries there) and Rob - Fang (with no ics entries). Don't ask me how do I know that. :cool:

Slavex, perhaps you should contact the HQ and ask them to fix it in the system. I.e. merge those records into one under a proper alias.
 
ICS is the only system that compares actual stage results for everyone *(ie everyone shoots the same stages)

It's been discussed to death for t he last 20 years. ICS is not perfect but it's workable if people actually start shooting ICS stages.

Just needs a few minor tweeks to it, no moving down unless you file a petition, and some rules for when/if a score is used.

IPSC Ontario has narrowed the stage list down, worked out proper HHF's for them, and implimented rules to control what scores get used to calculate your class. So if you're from another Province and want to see a better National system contact your SC and ask them to participate in it
 
Craig, it all doesn't change the fact that there is two entries in ICS system. One for fang and another for slavex. Fang just don't have any ics entries, yet alias is in there.

More over, as far as I know the full primary key for an alias lookup is all three out of last and first name AND date of birth. For example, there is two entries for Will JR and his dad (with the same first and last name), but they have different birth dates. Though Will also has a 2nd entry with different alias, and that entry doesn't have any ics stages on record.


It has nothing to do with his first name. If the Alias was current and the first name (or last name for that matter) was different...ICS would give an exception report comparing the two (your WinMss database vs the ICS database) entries against that Alias. It happens once in a while...I just use that report to correct the info.

In this case..."Fang" came back as "not found" because there were no classifier stages against it. It wouldn't matter what he used for a first name.
 
The unique ID is the Alias. If I have that and the persons last name I can get what ever else I need from the exception report. The DOB's don't matter...if the other info is correct and the DOB is left to the default setting...the system throws an error in the exception report...but the correct ICS data is still provided.

I just use the DOB to double check for Categories, since most people don't provide them

Craig, it all doesn't change the fact that there is two entries in ICS system. One for fang and another for slavex. Fang just don't have any ics entries, yet alias is in there.

More over, as far as I know the full primary key for an alias lookup is all three out of last and first name AND date of birth. For example, there is two entries for Will JR and his dad (with the same first and last name), but they have different birth dates. Though Will also has a 2nd entry with different alias, and that entry doesn't have any ics stages on record.
 
See above * in quote.

*AND I ended up being classified too low and missed out on my correct award and deprived someone of thiers.

So what happened?

To clarify I really want to know what happened and how to fix it for the future.

For whatever reason...the persons Class is the only info that does not appear on the shooter labels. If it was on there...it would certainly give the shooters an opportunity to identify any issues when there is still time to do something about it. I'll ask our SC to ask the RD to request this from the WinMss development team. I think it would solve a lot of these issues.
 
Craig, please just stop arguing. I was referring to alias lookup by competitor's name. Both you and I know how the ICS system works and how WinMSS interacts with it and your delusions about minor details are not important. :)

The unique ID is the Alias. If I have that and the persons last name I can get what ever else I need from the exception report. The DOB's don't matter...if the other info is correct and the DOB is left to the default setting...the system throws an error in the exception report...but the correct ICS data is still provided.

I just use the DOB to double check for Categories, since most people don't provide them
 
If I get told that I have to include X number of ICS stages in my matches I won't be a Match Director. The stages are boring, mind numbingly so for the most part. As well the whole idea is flawed as people can either sandbag or grandbag depending on their intentions. I am not a fan of ICS at all, but unfortunately I don't know of a better way of doing things either.
 
:rolleyes:

says the guy who has never done stats for a Major match...

Once you've done just a single one...feel free to tell me how this all works ;)

Craig, please just stop arguing. I was referring to alias lookup by competitor's name. Both you and I know how the ICS system works and how WinMSS interacts with it and your delusions about minor details are not important. :)
 
ICS will work if there are regular matches or they are used more often. I guess it is something the Sec reps for each province can suggest to match directors within their province. THEN,...it is up to match directors.

The onus to register is on the shooters themselves. Personally, I think it has been either one or two years since i shot registered classifiers...

Another thing to note,...I see classification awards as a way to encourage new or lower classification shooters....it is not all about winning,.. it is also about doing YOUR personal best.
 
If I get told that I have to include X number of ICS stages in my matches I won't be a Match Director. The stages are boring, mind numbingly so for the most part. As well the whole idea is flawed as people can either sandbag or grandbag depending on their intentions. I am not a fan of ICS at all, but unfortunately I don't know of a better way of doing things either.

That's two of the big typical arguement against ICS or the USPSA classification systems. As far as the stages being boring, well they are pretty much just short courses, and every major match, and all small ones too, I have been to has a short course, or several that are no more exciting than a classifier. If your match has any kind of stand and shoot 8 shots stage, its pretty much the same thing as a classifier.
As far as sandbagging, that's where ICS is flawed as you can go up and down and there are no throw outs for low scores. Wanna win a class trophy at the Nationals, shoot a few bad ICS stages and drop yourself a class or two. Or you just end up in situation where someone just had a run of bad classifiers, probably not intentional, or because there is not enough run, the class doesn't keep up with the individuals skill level. Grandbagging is not really that big of a deal, you certainly won't win anything doing it and nobody is really fooled when you show up at a match and can't perform at your supposed skill level. If someone wants to grandbag, let them, really it's just funny.
The USPSA system has been around a long time and has worked out most of these kinks. They'll toss any scores that are unrealistically high or low for your class and over the years has been a pretty good system for showing you where your skill level is at against some of the top shooters in the world.
 
When I was out at Nationals, I tried asking how the Ontario system works (I mean the actual data entry, not the formula behind the system). Nobody was able to tell me.

In BC, we only use match results, and we just import the results into an application that parses the data, adds it to the database and generates updates automatically. I don't know if you have something similar in Ontario, or if someone enters the data manually.

In a perfect world, I still think that something in between the two systems would be ideal:

1. Classifier scores from matches could be added for classification data using HHF like the US system (not the ICS system). I really don't like how a bad score generated from something like a squib or a jam pulls down your results. I like the US system that ignores scores that are more than 5% below your current classification level. Not a perfect idea; someone has already pointed out that classifiers test fundamentals rather than match performance, but it does allow people to get classified if they don't travel to a tonne of level 2 or 3 matches. To minimize the effects of 8 stage "classifier matches", we could adopt a policy like the USPSA one. In USPSA, you actually can only include 1 classifier stage per match with the exception of a "classifier match" (4 classifiers maximum) which can only be held at the club once per year.

2. Level 2 and 3 matches could be submitted as Classifier scores, just like USPSA Area matches count towards classification. Recognizing that sometimes GM's are not in attendance, an application of a "correction" factor could be applied to classifier matches. (this is what we do in BC). If a Master is the highest ranked shooter in attendance, then the match winner is only awarded 94.99% (highest percent for M) and all shooters only receive 94.99% of what they actually shot. Still has some issue and flaws, but these could be minimized by combination with classifier stages.

3. I really hate the ICS rolling average; I like the BC system where you only go down after set, annual dates; you can only go down in class after the Provincials, but if your scores indicate you should go down, you can petition to stay in the higher class if you feel that your scores during the year were not reflective of your ability. However, it is the board's discretion as to whether the petition should be granted. If it was a Canada wide system, it would probably be easiest just to scrap the "petition" process as it's hard for a national system to make exceptions for people in far away provinces.



No system is perfect, but if we really want a semi accurate national classification, we really need to move towards a national classification system which has its own problems and costs associated with it; we would probably end up having to include implementation and administration costs which would end up being like the ICS fees that nobody likes to pay. I don't see a truly effective and equitable solution given our current position.
 
Chris, you can talk to me about Ontario system. I am somewhat responsible for implementation.

Right now the data are sucked in directly from the published match results. There is a manual step when selected stages and matches are marked for import into classification and when HHF is set and also to normalize competitor names. After that classification is calculated automatically once a month.

In Ontario, given number of shooters and their distribution within province we had a problem with Level II matches, as they results are not representative. So, the decision been made to only use Level III matches with manual coffecient similar to HHF.
 
I had a similar discussion with someone last year and had a closer look at the 2010 Nationals results with respect to classes. I have not taken a similar look at the 2011 results. The following is based on the classes listed in the overall match results which may have included requested class increases and may not be exclusively ICS classes.

In 2010 Open Division, there were 38 classified shooters who completed the match: 16 had scores within the range for their class, 21 has scores below their class, and 1 had a score above his class.

In 2010 Production Division: 31 total, 17 within class, and 6 above class.

In 2010 Standard Division: 37 total, 19 within class, 7 below class, and 11 above class.

Of the 18 competitors who shot above their class across those 3 divisions: 15 had scores 1 class above their class, 2 had scores 2 classes above their class, and 1 had a score 3 classes above his class. It is the latter three cases that seemed to generate the greatest amount of concern and appeared to be the least "fair".

On the other tail of the distribution, of the 36 competitors who shot below their class: 28 had scores 1 class below their class and 8 had scores 2 classes below their class. More people shot below their class than above it, but it is a lot easier to screw up and shoot below one's class than it is to have a stellar day and shoot above ones class (assuming that said class is accurate and meaningful).

Having 3 "unfair" results out of 106 may be as good as we can hope for given all of the factors that go into an IPSC score.

It would be interesting and perhaps useful to this discussion to have someone do the same analysis of the 2011 results and see just what proportion of the results were way out of whack this year.
 
The Ontario system is pretty much exactly like the USPSA system, fixes stages with fixed HHF and the rules for percentages, high or low throw outs, no going down in class etc.
 
I was bored so I took a look a the 2011 results.

Open Division:
- 45 out of 66 competitors classified
- Top Canadian 82.05%
- 1 competitor scored 2 classes above their class
- 1 competitor scored 1 class above their class
- 15 competitors scored within their class
- 15 competitors scored 1 class below their class
- 13 competitors scored 2 classes below their class
33% within their class, 69% within plus or minus 1 class, 100% within plus or minus 2 classes

Production Division:
- 38 out of 70 competitors classified
- Top Canadian 94.99%
- 1 competitor scored 2 classes above their class
- 7 competitors scored 1 class above their class
- 16 competitors scored within their class
- 11 competitors scored 1 class below their class
- 3 competitors scored 2 classes below their class
42% within their class, 89% within plus or minus 1 class, 100% within plus or minus 2 classes

Revolver Division:
- 6 out of 11 competitors classified
- Top Canadian 74.13%
- 0 competitors scored 2 classes above their class
- 2 competitors scored 1 class above their class
- 1 competitor scored within their class
- 2 competitors scored 1 class below their class
- 1 competitors scored 2 classes below their class
17% within their class, 83% within plus or minus 1 class, 100% within plus or minus 2 classes

Standard Division:
- 54 out of 83 competitors classified
- Top Canadian 100.00%
- 2 competitors scored 2 classes above their class
- 14 competitors scored 1 class above their class
- 24 competitors scored within their class
- 12 competitors scored 1 class below their class
- 1 competitor scored 2 classes below their class
- 1 competitor scored 3 classes below their class
44% within their class, 93% within plus or minus 1 class, 98% within plus or minus 2 classes, 100% within plus or minus 3 classes

Open, Production, and Revolver are all skewed down due to someone from outside the region winning the match. The size of Revolver division might not allow for statistically significant analysis.
 
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