Interesting ,in the February issue of Reloader magazine an article is featured regarding a new powder made for Hodgon called Eduron IMR 4166,IMR4451 + IMR 7977.Roughly equivalent to IMR 4064,IMR 4350 + Retumbo.Some have added lead to the powder to just about eliminate copper fouling?Others a detergent added to the flakes or in no lead zones tin or zinc was substituted.Wonder why these powders aren't kept and sold in Canada instead of shipped south?Harold
Canadian made IMR Enduron powder?
- Thread starter mbogo3
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The IMR plant has been operating in Quebec for many decades. They are owned by Hodgdon and all production is shipped in bulk containers to the US for bottling into retail packaging. My understanding is the importation regulations are different for retail packed powder versus bulk powder and since the US is the primary market, they want to keep the price down for US customers. It makes sense from an economic point of view. If they're selling 95% of it in the US, it's made in Canada, but they can make it cheaper for US customers if they package it in the US, then that's what they'll do. Then they can either charge less to be more competitive or, more likely, charge the same and increase profits.
The thing to remember is that Canada is an absolutely minuscule market compared to the US for anything firearm related. The US has 10x our population and 3x our gun ownership per capita. So we're looking at a ratio of 30:1 for US to Canadian potential customers.
Powder additives to reduce copper fouling have been used since at least the 1970's. The only one I've tried is CFE223 from Hodgdon and it noticeably reduces copper fouling but doesn't totally eliminate it. As far as I know the most common additive is tungsten powder which scrubs the barrel with each successive shot down the bore. The abrasive qualities of the powder are not supposed to significantly damage steels so they theoretically don't increase barrel erosion. Kind of like how a scotch brite pad for washing dishes will scrub off stuck on food but isn't abrasive enough to damage cookware or dishes. Since copper is significantly softer than steel this isn't that difficult.
I've seen the new IMR powders at one local store I frequent. They use much brighter colours for the labels compared to the usual muted tones from older IMR powders. I remember seeing neon green and neon orange I believe.
Another interesting thing about the IMR plant in Quebec is Hodgdon seems to have switched production of all the shotgun and pistol powders to the US side. There were rumours of several shipments being rejected after testing and finding they didn't meet the requirements/burn rates. Powders like 700x, 800x, and Trail Boss that used to be under the IMR label are now all under the Hodgdon label. They no longer say "made in Canada, packaged in the USA" but now say "made in the USA". The new rifle powders are still made in Canada so the rumours of them closing down the Quebec plant seem to be false. I guess they are just switching the IMR brand to only rifle powders (IMR does stand for Improved Military Rifle after all so I guess it makes sense).
The thing to remember is that Canada is an absolutely minuscule market compared to the US for anything firearm related. The US has 10x our population and 3x our gun ownership per capita. So we're looking at a ratio of 30:1 for US to Canadian potential customers.
Powder additives to reduce copper fouling have been used since at least the 1970's. The only one I've tried is CFE223 from Hodgdon and it noticeably reduces copper fouling but doesn't totally eliminate it. As far as I know the most common additive is tungsten powder which scrubs the barrel with each successive shot down the bore. The abrasive qualities of the powder are not supposed to significantly damage steels so they theoretically don't increase barrel erosion. Kind of like how a scotch brite pad for washing dishes will scrub off stuck on food but isn't abrasive enough to damage cookware or dishes. Since copper is significantly softer than steel this isn't that difficult.
I've seen the new IMR powders at one local store I frequent. They use much brighter colours for the labels compared to the usual muted tones from older IMR powders. I remember seeing neon green and neon orange I believe.
Another interesting thing about the IMR plant in Quebec is Hodgdon seems to have switched production of all the shotgun and pistol powders to the US side. There were rumours of several shipments being rejected after testing and finding they didn't meet the requirements/burn rates. Powders like 700x, 800x, and Trail Boss that used to be under the IMR label are now all under the Hodgdon label. They no longer say "made in Canada, packaged in the USA" but now say "made in the USA". The new rifle powders are still made in Canada so the rumours of them closing down the Quebec plant seem to be false. I guess they are just switching the IMR brand to only rifle powders (IMR does stand for Improved Military Rifle after all so I guess it makes sense).
BattleRife
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Is it really an "IMR plant"? Or is it a powder plant that Hodgdon contracts to make powders for their IMR brand line?
It is my understanding that the powders come from the same plant in Valleyfield, formerly known as Expro and now a part of General Dynamics, that makes all the propellants for the Canadian IVI arsenal. Hodgdon hardly has the power to close them down.
It is my understanding that the powders come from the same plant in Valleyfield, formerly known as Expro and now a part of General Dynamics, that makes all the propellants for the Canadian IVI arsenal. Hodgdon hardly has the power to close them down.
It was a random rumour flying around the internet. Hodgdon was going to transfer all IMR production to plants stateside so they could "shut down" the IMR plant in Quebec. The plant itself is not owned by Hodgdon, you're correct, but the IMR line of powders is and I would guess accounts for a good chunk of their production.
Never could understand the logic of rape and pillar up here.
If the market is 10X down south side, charge 10X more for the product
so us Kanuckbuckers can get it for 3X cheaper?
Move the plant out of Quebec and make it more profitable.
Heck, even the Ka-bouys knew to go West..........................
If the market is 10X down south side, charge 10X more for the product
so us Kanuckbuckers can get it for 3X cheaper?
Move the plant out of Quebec and make it more profitable.
Heck, even the Ka-bouys knew to go West..........................
To be honest, I had a brain fart. I know the Valleyfield plant is owned by General Dynamics but I've been reading too many US forums while turning my brain off. They have no understanding of a military industry outside of the US and assume everything firearms based is owned by American's.
I suppose it can be referred to as the "IMR plant" since it's the plant that all the IMR powder is made at. Not that it's owned by "IMR".
@kamlooky
In modern economics it's pretty safe to assume that every major company that's turning a profit is pricing their products at the mathematically ideal point to maximize profits. I mean car companies will risk lawsuits to save $.50 per vehicle for safety latches on doors. A larger market also doesn't directly relate to people willing to pay more for a product. It simply changes the calculation for ideal price points for maximum profitability. If anything, a smaller market usually means higher prices. We Canadians only get powder for as cheap as we do because of the US market we can leech off of.
Moving the plant out of Quebec would likely cost far more than anything they can save operating in Western Canada. Getting government approval for a propellant factory is a big deal and finding the trained and experienced staff required would be a nightmare since not everyone will want to move across the country.
Economics aren't as simple as you make them sound.
I suppose it can be referred to as the "IMR plant" since it's the plant that all the IMR powder is made at. Not that it's owned by "IMR".
@kamlooky
In modern economics it's pretty safe to assume that every major company that's turning a profit is pricing their products at the mathematically ideal point to maximize profits. I mean car companies will risk lawsuits to save $.50 per vehicle for safety latches on doors. A larger market also doesn't directly relate to people willing to pay more for a product. It simply changes the calculation for ideal price points for maximum profitability. If anything, a smaller market usually means higher prices. We Canadians only get powder for as cheap as we do because of the US market we can leech off of.
Moving the plant out of Quebec would likely cost far more than anything they can save operating in Western Canada. Getting government approval for a propellant factory is a big deal and finding the trained and experienced staff required would be a nightmare since not everyone will want to move across the country.
Economics aren't as simple as you make them sound.
A couple of weeks ago, Muskoka Trapper (in Huntsville) had some Enduron on the shelf.
I picked up a pound of the green label stuff for the AR. Also hoping that it's suitable for the Garand in .308/30-06 but I'll have to go trawl a few forums to see what the consensus is. I've not seen it placed on a burn rate chart yet - I'll pick up a hodgdon manual soon
