Canadian milsurp historical research idea

[RobSmith]

For the longest time now I've been dreaming of the day where we can find some way to trace back and put together the history of individual small arms that have gone thru the Canadian inventory (say from 1914, the beginning of WW1, to the end of the Korean war), from delivery (or even manufacture, if lucky), to issue, to any rework, to surplussing/destruction/loss/whatever. But I just don't know where to start. Seems to me that <if> such a database could be compiled, based on the make/model/serial number of the individual weapon (and <maybe> it's accessories, like the bayonet and scabbard) it may prove to be hugely valuable to future historical researchers (while at least some of the records may still exist). Governments are by their very nature rather tedious record-keepers so there must be a way of mining those records that haven't been discarded/destroyed as "insignificant" and extracting a milsurp gunnut's wet dream out of them .

The problem is, I really don't know where to start with this, would anyone be interested in giving such an project idea a try ? I figure it would require a number of requests to the National Archives for a start, try and get some delivery records pulled out, then pull out the records of the initial delivery inspections, which would eventually lead to records of initial unit issue, which would lead to individual soldier issue. There might be a name or service number for the individual who was issued, and is resposible for, a given weapon, maybe learn a thing or two about the individual soldier maybe even put a name or a face on the individual, determine the individual's achievements and fate, and so on and so forth... It just seems like a neat thing to try for me, if anything just for kicks ...

 

[ollie]

I'd love to know what kind of records were kept about what serial # gun was issued to whom, etc. and how they keep track of what guns go where and when. I've got a WW2 Canadian Inglish Hipower, I'd love to know what the story behind it is(i.e. did some officer "forget" to hand it in, or was it surplused, etc)...this should prove to be a very interesting thread!

 

[leftent]

From what I understand, no such records have ever been kept by the Canadian or British authorities.
Serial numbers may have been recorded at individual unit level, but troops were seldom issued the same rifle repeatedly. You got the one that the storeman handed to you. Granted, if a soldier fought for an extended period of time ie; The Italy Campaign he may have carried the same rifle for months or even years, but if he was invalided out, or even went on leave "his" rifle would have been issued to someone else. Other than having soldiers responsible for a rifle to prevent it from being lost or damaged the QM was only interested in total numbers of firearms. If your unit held 550 rifles on paper you had jolly well better have 550 actual rifles accounted for. They really didn't care that 73l###X was Private Bloggins favorite.

 

[RobSmith]

I guess it comes down to wether the QM would have covered his backside to the point of recording when rifle 73l###X was handed over to "Private Bloggins" on such and such a date, and was checked back in at such and such at date, at which point it was issued to "Corporal Johnson", and so on and so forth, at which level did the record-keeping stop (Regiment, Company, Platoon, whatever).

Also, what happened when a rifle needed repair or servicing, would the individual soldier whom checked in the "broken" firearm be recorded in a report, or was this strictly the QM's responsibility ? In any case, I just find it interesting to try and figure out how much information can be gathered regarding a single, individual piece of equipment, such as a rifle, throughout it's service life. Also interesting to look into is how the record keeping practices evolved over time (Generally speaking, the military, like any other Government entity, thrives on bureaucracy, and bureaucracy is one of those things that tends to get heavier and heavier with time).

Historical research is usually done about individual people and their "achievements" and sometimes about certain types of equipment and how their construction/characteristics evolved over time (Say, the different marks of the Lee-Enfield rifle), but very rarely do you ever see history seen from the point of view of <individual> pieces of equipment, except for the very largest of things such as planes and tanks ans ships.

It's just one of those things that always "bothered" me for the longest time, finding out just "how much" paperwork is still out there.

 

[sunray]

Records of what unit got what S/N were destroyed long ago. Like leftent says, records of who got what weren't kept. If a troopie needed a new rifle, he turned in his old one, if he had it, and signed for a new one, well another one. However, nobody, anywhere, kept those records.
Now, units are issued by S/N, but troopies aren't. Even though the troopies still sign for a weapon and the S/N is recorded, the records aren't kept.

 

[RobSmith]

I see ... So basically, at best, <if> any records even still exist, you're talking about a date of acceptance, and a date of surplussing/destruction/loss, and <maybe> a records of a trip to the armorer here and there ? Or not even that much ? Just trying to grasp how much, or how little record-keeping there would have been in the old days, and how much of the old paperwork may still exist.

 

[servicepub]

I see ... So basically, at best, <if> any records even still exist, you're talking about a date of acceptance, and a date of surplussing/destruction/loss, and <maybe> a records of a trip to the armorer here and there ? Or not even that much ? Just trying to grasp how much, or how little record-keeping there would have been in the old days, and how much of the old paperwork may still exist.

To introduce myself, I have written "Canadian Military Handguns, 1855-1985", "Inglis Diamond, the Canadian Hi-Power Pistol", "Without Warning, Canadian Sniper Equipment of the 20th Century" and I have provided much of the detail on the Canadian aspects in "The Bren Gun Saga" 2nd Edition, and "The Sten Gun" - the last two published by Colelctor Grade Publications.
I provide this to give you some idea of the research that I have undertaken at National Archives and National Defence in Canada as well as at the MOD Pattern Room, The Armouries Museum at Leeds and the Army and Imperial War Museums, all in the UK.

There are NO lists of weapons serials numbers showing issues!! Serial numbers only come into play as an audit tooll during manufacture and to track individual weapons upon issue. At no other time does the army give a rat's a** about serial numbers.

When Long Branch gets an order to build 50,000 rifles that's what they do. They are then ordered to ship these in lots of 200 to Longue Pointe Ordnance Depot in Montreal. LPOD counts the number received and compares it to the bill of lading. LPOD then receives issue orders to send 120 to the 1st Montreal Mounted Catering and Bootlicking Bn. The QM signs for 120 upon receipt. He will log serial numbers for the first time as part of the Battalion's overall inventory. When Pvt Bloggins is issued his rifle by the QM both take note of the s/n - the QM in his issue card and Bloggins in his MFM*** (can't remember the number). That's it. No records go back up the line. Archives don't have these stashed away. DND couldn't care less. In fact, DND would need several hundred extra soldiers just to keep track of that kind of useless info. It wasn't until the 1990s that the SNAC program started at DND and weapon serial numbers were logged and tracked and that only happened because of computers.

 

[BadgerDog]

To introduce myself, I have written "Canadian Military Handguns, 1855-1985", "Inglis Diamond, the Canadian Hi-Power Pistol", "Without Warning, Canadian Sniper Equipment of the 20th Century" and I have provided much of the detail on the Canadian aspects in "The Bren Gun Saga" 2nd Edition, and "The Sten Gun" - the last two published by Colelctor Grade Publications.

Glad to see you here Sir........

I've bought everything you've published and they've been very helpful, plus in my opinion, quality research material of this nature greatly enhances one's enjoyment in owning any of these pieces of history. Keep them coming.

Could sure use something better done on the Ross, along the look and feel of the other Collector Grade Series books. I realize the Ross Rifle Story exists and I have it. It's huge as measured in thickness, but I find it difficult to wade through and find anything, plus it's print and reproduction quality is poor. It's as if there's ten books all shoved together into one huge 30 pound paperweight.

Regards,
Badger

 

[Cam_S]

There are NO lists of weapons serials numbers showing issues!! Serial numbers only come into play as an audit tooll during manufacture and to track individual weapons upon issue. At no other time does the army give a rat's a** about serial numbers.

Hello Clive,

I don't Agree with this totally.

You are absolutly right about the fact that the Army or DND does not give a rats a** about it but at one time they did. There is no one master list where you can go and find out where all the rifles went. I know how much research you have done but there is one place that you can not look.

The place to look is in Reserve units RHQ's.

I am in the Reserves and I have seen and heard many stories about paper work and other interesting things found at units. At my unit, there were over 50 pers files found in a unit safe that dated to the 1920-1930s and alot of other period paper work that now resides in our museum. I have seen them myself so this is no line of Bull.

This would be a task that really could not be completed. Someone could not go through all of the units and check for these pieces of paper. There would be no lists for overseas units during WW1/WW2 but there probably are lists from the militia units left behind and from before both wars.

Its just a matter of copies of paper work surviving in places that they should have been cleared out of long ago.

Cam