canadian vs. us infantry rifle optic
- Thread starter rally guy
- Start date
The Elcan is robust.... Except for the mount that is pretty crappy, with exposed part.
Gunnerlove
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Vancouver Island
Adjust your helmet so it does not rest on your optic. Normal operation does not require pushing on the top of the optic.
Which optic currently on the market includes "good" back up iron sights? A 4" sight radius is the limiting factor. At ranges where a pistol sight radius works a 20"AR does not need a rear sight. If you have a good cheek weld you can make hits to 100m with just a front sight. Or skip trying it and buy a cheap magpul BUIS and move on.
Poor training creates tunnel vision. Optics get blamed. Optics also help to mentally remove troops from the fact they are shooting people (or at people based on most demonstrations of marksmanship).
Variables are great but they are just one more thing for Pte Snuffles to eff around with and constantly set to the wrong setting.
Unknown distance range, with both pop up and moving obscured shoot/no shoot targets. What do you want? Irons? 1X optic or 3.4X with outstanding glass?
Yup, 7 year half life, guess when they are overhauled and the lamps changed out. The life of tritium is better than any battery operated optic.
If you have shot with an ACOG you would know the Elcan has really good eye relief and great glass.
A $3200 optic for general issue? Issued to troops who for the most part suck at shooting, abuse weapons and struggle when zeroing a rifle with a simple C79? Sounds like a plan.
My plan would include the kit we have and better training.
.
angryeyebrows
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Oscar Mike
Adjusting your helmet and tilting it back on your head is a sucky solution.
For a lot of people, the C79 must be mounted so far rearward that it does not permit the mounting of a rear back up sight. Your solution of "just using the front sight" is silly. Not a real solution in my book. Maybe in an absolute emergency situation.
I've shot with both extensively and I don't like the eye relief with either of them. The 4x ACOG is 1.5" and the C79 is supposed to be 2.75" but feels like about 2". Personally I prefer some of the lower power ACOGs. I really like that 1.5x with over 3" of eye relief.
I don't think he was talking about general issue. Are you saying soldiers with DM training in an infantry platoon suck at shooting, abuse their weapons and can't zero a C79?? If so, you need to get your head on straight! Clearly when you are deciding on an optic for general issue to every wog out there, ruggedness and simplicity is the best approach. The ACOG is very rugged, simple and is a great choice for general issue.
angryeyebrows
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Oscar Mike
A lot of dudes did...
I had both in Afghanistan.
C79 isn't a bad scope but not very good for anything close. And they seem to be getting tired from the beating they take.
The acog is superior in every way. Great glass, better magnification, more durable, etc etc. As for close qtrs its an excellent optic, with both eyes open put the red chevron on your target and pull the trigger. to train for this cover the glass on the scope with tape and practice shooting with bother eyes open. The reticule will still appear on the target.
my 2cents
C79 isn't a bad scope but not very good for anything close. And they seem to be getting tired from the beating they take.
The acog is superior in every way. Great glass, better magnification, more durable, etc etc. As for close qtrs its an excellent optic, with both eyes open put the red chevron on your target and pull the trigger. to train for this cover the glass on the scope with tape and practice shooting with bother eyes open. The reticule will still appear on the target.
my 2cents
C-79
-It was nice, not amazing. I spent time reading the pam and understood the sight as well as anyone else I know. I always shot very well with it, its what I started my shooting career on. I have personally had the old mount break on me, once on a C7, once on a C9. the C9 was a treat because I could lift it all the way up and down, like the feed tray, lol and still I had a sgt blame me for the grouping... I have never seen or had a problem with the improved A2 mount. I agree that its mostly more training and range time needed on the sight, and it will for sure out shoot most of the people who use it.
Some people dislike the eye relief, and its not the most generous however I thought that the eye relief was acceptable. The Reticule seemed to always be dim on all the C79's including the A2's. The Tritium is not nearly as good as the ACOG's fiber optic or the battery power of the Aimpoint/Eo/DR. I thought the glass was very nice and the image was always bright and low light shooting (except for dim reticule) was good.
On another note, it is a annoying how the helmet sits on the sight. And to the guy who said adjust your helmet back:
1. It feels retarded,
2. It exposes your forehead ( I like my forehead thanks)
3. It looks retarded, and usually people who wear their helmets like that are the worst...
EoTech
I shot it on the C7 and the C9. I thought it was a nice sight and it was great for close quarters, I like it best on the C9, put anything in the circle and pull the trigger, and sha bang! its toast. Lots of our dudes did this, swapping with c8 guys.
One real negative is the No magnification, I do not like that, and many of our guys for thoe Lg or Eo magnifiers, but they limited the fov and got dirty. Then you had 4 glass surfaces that needed to be cleaned very often.
There are however a ton of brightness settings, and if it was stupid bright you could still see it, and if you wanted shoot long, or low light, you could make it very dim.
ACOG
Scored one from a marine in trade for a PT shirt and a set of ballistic eye ware.
It was very nice, I loved the illuminated reticule, it works way better then the tritium on the C79. It looks nice and kept the zero well during constant on and offs the rifle. It was a nice clean image, and I shot very well with it. Lent it to my Sgt. once I got my DR. he used it all tour, and loved it. He shot very well with it.
Specter DR
Bought this from a CGNer right before my last tour. I loved it, best sight I have ever used hands down. Easy operation, holds zero, beautiful reticule and illuminates both the red dot and reticule separately. Two negatives, the lowest illuminations are both to bright for precision use with NVM, it blows up big. that and two weeks into use the spring that keeps the magnification leaver up broke, so the leaver bounces up and down, this never cause a failure in the operation, or caused it to switch or move to half. The picture was exceptional, and the sight held up to very heavy abuse.
The only problem I have was crusty old men telling me it was not issued, and that I was not allowed to use it. My solution was to get a spare sight cover from a C79, and cut notches to fit it over top of the DR, (after removing the backup sights) This I kept on when I was around camp, and then took off as soon as I left.
Finally is the TWS
- This was our Weapon Mounted Thermal Sight. I used this during a three week stretch when I was not allowed to use the DR, and did not have my cover. The TWS was a ton of fun, it was silly heavy. Every two days it used a huge non rechargeable battery. It had an electronic zero, so as long as you remember the numbers it could be put back on and then apply the electric zero, and it shot real well. (although I would have to stick IR glowsticks into the targets and shoot at the tips. This have variable zoom, blk and wht hot settings and very nice focus.
The best part was how much it pissed off crusty old me, it angered them soooo much because it was issued, and they could say nothing.. oh good times. The biggest set back I think was that it cost like $13,000... but ya.
Final Verdict.
1. Specter DR
ACOG and C79 A2 are comparable,
EoTech beats aimpoint.
As far as US vs Canadian, they use Elcan sights as well, my last tour some of their Airborne units started to get one DR per squad, and many of their 249 gnrs were using Elcan 305's i think?? Their line Inf were still using a combination of Aimpoints and Acogs. The USMC were using Acogs mostly, and some elcans on their MG's.
I think if there is one take away about all these sights is that when something is a mil spec site, it can get the s**t kicked out of it. Like I was mechanized infantry and these thinks get dropped on ramps, slide off Lav's, get dropped on floors and thrown into turret rings, we scraped them going over walls, had them crash around when slung or carrying another weapon. I wish I had pictures, just beat to hell, it would make you guys cringe (it made me cringe because I knew what they cost per unit) However despite terrible abuse, they held up, held their zero, and glass stayed intact. So there is a reason we pay 1600 plus.
So we use many of the same optics, but thats my take on it, anyways. whatever...
-It was nice, not amazing. I spent time reading the pam and understood the sight as well as anyone else I know. I always shot very well with it, its what I started my shooting career on. I have personally had the old mount break on me, once on a C7, once on a C9. the C9 was a treat because I could lift it all the way up and down, like the feed tray, lol and still I had a sgt blame me for the grouping... I have never seen or had a problem with the improved A2 mount. I agree that its mostly more training and range time needed on the sight, and it will for sure out shoot most of the people who use it.
Some people dislike the eye relief, and its not the most generous however I thought that the eye relief was acceptable. The Reticule seemed to always be dim on all the C79's including the A2's. The Tritium is not nearly as good as the ACOG's fiber optic or the battery power of the Aimpoint/Eo/DR. I thought the glass was very nice and the image was always bright and low light shooting (except for dim reticule) was good.
On another note, it is a annoying how the helmet sits on the sight. And to the guy who said adjust your helmet back:
1. It feels retarded,
2. It exposes your forehead ( I like my forehead thanks)
3. It looks retarded, and usually people who wear their helmets like that are the worst...
EoTech
I shot it on the C7 and the C9. I thought it was a nice sight and it was great for close quarters, I like it best on the C9, put anything in the circle and pull the trigger, and sha bang! its toast. Lots of our dudes did this, swapping with c8 guys.
One real negative is the No magnification, I do not like that, and many of our guys for thoe Lg or Eo magnifiers, but they limited the fov and got dirty. Then you had 4 glass surfaces that needed to be cleaned very often.
There are however a ton of brightness settings, and if it was stupid bright you could still see it, and if you wanted shoot long, or low light, you could make it very dim.
ACOG
Scored one from a marine in trade for a PT shirt and a set of ballistic eye ware.
It was very nice, I loved the illuminated reticule, it works way better then the tritium on the C79. It looks nice and kept the zero well during constant on and offs the rifle. It was a nice clean image, and I shot very well with it. Lent it to my Sgt. once I got my DR. he used it all tour, and loved it. He shot very well with it.
Specter DR
Bought this from a CGNer right before my last tour. I loved it, best sight I have ever used hands down. Easy operation, holds zero, beautiful reticule and illuminates both the red dot and reticule separately. Two negatives, the lowest illuminations are both to bright for precision use with NVM, it blows up big. that and two weeks into use the spring that keeps the magnification leaver up broke, so the leaver bounces up and down, this never cause a failure in the operation, or caused it to switch or move to half. The picture was exceptional, and the sight held up to very heavy abuse.
The only problem I have was crusty old men telling me it was not issued, and that I was not allowed to use it. My solution was to get a spare sight cover from a C79, and cut notches to fit it over top of the DR, (after removing the backup sights) This I kept on when I was around camp, and then took off as soon as I left.
Finally is the TWS
- This was our Weapon Mounted Thermal Sight. I used this during a three week stretch when I was not allowed to use the DR, and did not have my cover. The TWS was a ton of fun, it was silly heavy. Every two days it used a huge non rechargeable battery. It had an electronic zero, so as long as you remember the numbers it could be put back on and then apply the electric zero, and it shot real well. (although I would have to stick IR glowsticks into the targets and shoot at the tips. This have variable zoom, blk and wht hot settings and very nice focus.
The best part was how much it pissed off crusty old me, it angered them soooo much because it was issued, and they could say nothing.. oh good times. The biggest set back I think was that it cost like $13,000... but ya.
Final Verdict.
1. Specter DR
ACOG and C79 A2 are comparable,
EoTech beats aimpoint.
As far as US vs Canadian, they use Elcan sights as well, my last tour some of their Airborne units started to get one DR per squad, and many of their 249 gnrs were using Elcan 305's i think?? Their line Inf were still using a combination of Aimpoints and Acogs. The USMC were using Acogs mostly, and some elcans on their MG's.
I think if there is one take away about all these sights is that when something is a mil spec site, it can get the s**t kicked out of it. Like I was mechanized infantry and these thinks get dropped on ramps, slide off Lav's, get dropped on floors and thrown into turret rings, we scraped them going over walls, had them crash around when slung or carrying another weapon. I wish I had pictures, just beat to hell, it would make you guys cringe (it made me cringe because I knew what they cost per unit) However despite terrible abuse, they held up, held their zero, and glass stayed intact. So there is a reason we pay 1600 plus.
So we use many of the same optics, but thats my take on it, anyways. whatever...
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Used both, prefer the Ta31 because;
1) The BDC is not obscured by a post
(elcans have the adjustment in the back, but I'd rather use a BDC and be able to keep a sight picture than #### around setting my range every time)
2) I could back over it in a truck and it would keep its zero
3) I wouldnt have to check and make sure my sight is on tight on every short halt
4) I can use a BUIS
5) The TA31 uses a fibre optic light gathering source, not tritium, so no radiological concerns, and a longer service life.
6) I find the red cheveron a lot faster for aquisition.
7) Love the BAC, both eyes open is fantastic for keepin SA, but takes time and training. (This is also possible with the Elcan, but i find it easier to focus on the chevron than a black point.)
8)the elcan fogs up like crazy. I've mitigated this a bit with the anti-fog spray that comes with our BEW, but I've never had an ACOG fog up at all.
I also had a QD 3-10X variable for a bit when I was in a hatch and had to look at strange things in the road, or needed to be able to tell the difference between a shovel and a rifle at 400+. Never shot with it outside the range for zeroing though. Its not viable for a general issue optic, but filled my niche when it had to. I used irons for a bit, and a borrowed aimpoint M2 for a bit too.
Anyways, the US has us beat hands down, as they have more options. Their CoC's are generally far more lenient towards personal preference as well.
1) The BDC is not obscured by a post
(elcans have the adjustment in the back, but I'd rather use a BDC and be able to keep a sight picture than #### around setting my range every time)
2) I could back over it in a truck and it would keep its zero
3) I wouldnt have to check and make sure my sight is on tight on every short halt
4) I can use a BUIS
5) The TA31 uses a fibre optic light gathering source, not tritium, so no radiological concerns, and a longer service life.
6) I find the red cheveron a lot faster for aquisition.
7) Love the BAC, both eyes open is fantastic for keepin SA, but takes time and training. (This is also possible with the Elcan, but i find it easier to focus on the chevron than a black point.)
8)the elcan fogs up like crazy. I've mitigated this a bit with the anti-fog spray that comes with our BEW, but I've never had an ACOG fog up at all.
I also had a QD 3-10X variable for a bit when I was in a hatch and had to look at strange things in the road, or needed to be able to tell the difference between a shovel and a rifle at 400+. Never shot with it outside the range for zeroing though. Its not viable for a general issue optic, but filled my niche when it had to. I used irons for a bit, and a borrowed aimpoint M2 for a bit too.
Anyways, the US has us beat hands down, as they have more options. Their CoC's are generally far more lenient towards personal preference as well.
C-79
-It was nice, not amazing. I spent time reading the pam and understood the sight as well as anyone else I know. I always shot very well with it, its what I started my shooting career on. I have personally had the old mount break on me, once on a C7, once on a C9. the C9 was a treat because I could lift it all the way up and down, like the feed tray, lol and still I had a sgt blame me for the grouping... I have never seen or had a problem with the improved A2 mount. I agree that its mostly more training and range time needed on the sight, and it will for sure out shoot most of the people who use it.
On another note, it is a annoying how the helmet sits on the sight. And to the guy who said adjust your helmet back:
1. It feels retarded,
2. It exposes your forehead ( I like my forehead thanks)
3. It looks retarded, and usually people who wear their helmets like that are the worst...
EoTech
I shot it on the C7 and the C9. I thought it was a nice sight and it was great for close quarters, I like it best on the C9, put anything in the circle and pull the trigger, and sha bang! its toast. Lots of our dudes did this, swapping with c8 guys. One real negative is the No magnification, I do not like that, and many of our guys for thoe Lg or Eo magnifiers, but they limited the fov and got dirty. Then you had 4 glass surfaces that needed to be cleaned very often.
ACOG
Scored one from a marine in trade for a PT shirt and a set of ballistic eye ware. It was very nice, I loved the illuminated reticule, it works way better then the tritium on the C79. It looks nice and kept the zero well during constant on and offs the rifle. It was a nice clean image, and I shot very well with it. Lent it to my Sgt. once I got my DR. he used it all tour, and loved it. He shot very well with it.
Specter DR
Bought this from a CGNer right before my last tour. I loved it, best sight I have ever used hands down. Easy operation, holds zero, beautiful reticule and illuminates both the red dot and reticule separately. Two negatives, the lowest illuminations are both to bright for precision use with NVM, it blows up big. that and two weeks into use the spring that keeps the magnification leaver up broke, so the leaver bounces up and down, this never cause a failure in the operation, or caused it to switch or move to half. The only problem I have was crusty old men telling me it was not issued, and that I was not allowed to use it. My solution was to get a spare sight cover from a C79, and cut notches to fit it over top of the DR, (after removing the backup sights) This I kept on when I was around camp, and then took off as soon as I left.
Finally is the TWS
- I used this during a three week stretch when I was not allowed to use the DR, and did not have my cover. The TWS was a ton of fun, it was silly heavy. Every two days it used a huge non rechargeable battery. It had an electronic zero, so as long as you remember the numbers it could be put back on and then apply the electric zero, and it shot real well. (although I would have to stick IR glowsticks into the targets and shoot at the tips. This have variable zoom, blk and wht hot settings and very nice focus. The best part was how much it pissed off crusty old me, it angered them soooo much because it was issued, and they could say nothing.. oh good times. The biggest set back I think was that it cost like $13,000... but ya.
Final Verdict.
1. Specter DR
ACOG and C79 A2 are comparable,
EoTech beats aimpoint.
As far as US vs Canadian, they use Elcan sights as well, my last tour some of their Airborne units started to get one DR per squad, and many of their 249 gnrs were using Elcan 305's i think?? Their line Inf were still using a combination of Aimpoints and Acogs. The USMC were using Acogs mostly, and some elcans on their MG's.
So we use many of the same optics, but thats my take on it, anyways. whatever...
Very very interesting read thank you! And thank you for your service.
exactly what angryeyebrows said, tilting the helmet back is no good at all. not to mention the fact that I don't like looking like a dork with my helmet pushed all the way back on my head. In addition you lose more protection the further you push the helmet back.
Not having a rear sight and just making do with the front sight at 100 might work for you but is not an option for me. Having a proper cheek-weld is all fine and dandy on static ranges, having proper cheek-weld on a 2 way range is not always feasible. Not having a rear sight is completely unreasonable. I could use Magpul BUIS, but if my C79 does get damaged/destroyed where would you have me mount the BUIS so I could employ it rapidly? the C79 does not have a quick disconnect system. I'm not willing to fart around with the 2 wingnuts on the side of the mount because that takes time and wasting time is likely to get me or my buddies killed.
I agree to an extent that poor training is a factor in tunnel vision, yet magnified optics do not help. When looking through the scope you lose a great deal of SA, poor training or excellent training, people make mistakes. when Pte Snuffles as you call him is taking up a sight picture on Johnny Taliban, he is likely to lose awareness of Cpl. Bloggins taking a bound in front of him and through his arcs which is likely to cause a case of Blue on Blue.
I have always found it infinitely easier to get batteries of every kind from CQ than to have my tritium replaced.
I have shot with ACOG's and liked them, the glass in the C79 is pretty good but I have always found the eye relief to be a pain.
I never said anything about general issue when commenting on the Schmidt and Bender scopes. I even made it clear that I was making a side note and then went in to making a Comment about the 2 designated marksmen in our platoon, not exactly implicating general issue. The OP asked about Canadian issued optics, not the C79 specifically, so I mentioned the Schmidt and Bender scope because it was issued to our guys.
I would agree with skrypnyk in that the Specter DR would be a good solution to the problem. I have never used one overseas but the range time I got with one (100 rounds) really made me like the sight. good idea with the rubber armour by the way. that'll prevent a significant amount of moustaches twitching at non-issued kit.
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Gunnerlove
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Vancouver Island
This would be a better discussion over beer.
angryeyebrows
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Oscar Mike
US Army is moving to a Common Squad Optic -- likley a 1.1-6x optic as the 1.1-8x have been deemd to big.
ELCAN - Great Glass - ####ty mount - DR's included. Best bpart of this - is Andy Webber did most of the mount upgrades on his own, as the CF would not comprehend the issues.
ACOG - BDC reticle in optic, poorer glass - major parralex issues - but a good GP sight.
TWS (PAS-13) unmitigated POS -- most folks now use clip on Thermals in front of their day sight - and uncooled thermal battery life is much better and use normal batteries (check out OASYS UTM).
ELCAN - Great Glass - ####ty mount - DR's included. Best bpart of this - is Andy Webber did most of the mount upgrades on his own, as the CF would not comprehend the issues.
ACOG - BDC reticle in optic, poorer glass - major parralex issues - but a good GP sight.
TWS (PAS-13) unmitigated POS -- most folks now use clip on Thermals in front of their day sight - and uncooled thermal battery life is much better and use normal batteries (check out OASYS UTM).
Gunnerlove
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Vancouver Island
Think the money will be there or will the program wither on the vine?
Just to note elcans use a black reticule during the day and tritium for night.
So the tritium is not supposed to be visible during the day.
Older acogs use to be this way as well. Then trigicon added a fibre optic light pipe to the agog provide an illuminated reticule during the day. All acogs have tritium to illuminate the reticule at night.
There is also battery powered acogs now.
So the tritium is not supposed to be visible during the day.
Older acogs use to be this way as well. Then trigicon added a fibre optic light pipe to the agog provide an illuminated reticule during the day. All acogs have tritium to illuminate the reticule at night.
There is also battery powered acogs now.
