Can't make the 1/2 inch 50 yard challenge and need help to do so

jamesharrison

jamesharrison

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So, still haven't made the grade yet. As a result, I'm here seeking guidance / assistance / advice / help / or all of the above to solve the problem. I don't think it is the rifle, or the mounts or the scope. As you can see from the attached photos it is usually 1 group, no matter the ammunition, that F's up my ability to achieve a passing grade.

As an aside, I finally learned to do at least 10 sighting / fouling shots when changing ammunition, whether it be brand, type or lot.

My rifle is a pretty-well stock Schultz & Larsen Model 77, albeit the factory rear sight has been removed & I had it fitted with Warne bases, Burris Zee-rings and a Bausch & Lomb 6-24x40 together with a scope-mounted bubble-level. My set-up includes a Davidson front rest with an Ultimate Accuracy windage-adjustable & forend-stop top & Sinclair bag filled with the magic black sand. Rear bag is a Bald Eagle also filled with black sand. The only thing touching the rifle when I fire is my trigger finger & thumb on the rear of the trigger guard. I shoot free recoil, the same as I did 40+ years ago when I shot BR. If it seems germane to the issue, I'm a Southpaw & shoot that way.

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I have tried the test with a number of different brands / types of ammunition, including S-K Standard Plus, S-K Rifle Match, S-K Rifle Match FP, Eley Match, Eley TenX (old RN), Eley TenX FP, RWS R50, Lapua Biathlon, Lapua Centre-X, Lapua Midas+ & Lapua X-Act & the results are always the same, 1 group spoils the batch. And in those groups, it is usually just 1 shot out of the 5 that screws up everything. Here are some representative 5 x 5 shot group photos:

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Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. I should also add that I've thought about having the barrel or barrel/receiver glass-bedded, but I'm not really sure that, given it is only 1 shot out of 25 that is wonky, that that would have much of an effect. I've also thought about digging out my old wind flags to see if that would work as I shoot almost due east, and our prevailing winds are from the Northwest. I'm stumped.
 

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Although the photos referred to don't yet appear (perhaps they are forthcoming), I remember this post from the other thread in which it appeared earlier.

If one or two groups are causing the attempt to qualify for the 1/2" challenge, it's usually a question of ammo.

But there's a second possibility contributing to the results. With the Schultz and Larsen rifle, which by the photo posted previously appears to be a M70 or possibly a M77, which had a trigger upgrade, it's worth remembering that many of them were "club rifles" for a long time. This means they may have seen a tremendous amount of use by many club shooters over the years. Depending on maintenance, they may not shoot quite as well as they did when they were less well-used.

To return to the first possible culprit responsible for some groups having errant shots, it's important to remember that accuracy doesn't derive from the name on the box, whether it's the top variety of ammo made by Eley, Lapua or RWS. Every variety of ammo is made in batches called lots. The key is that lots of the same variety, be it Eley Tenex or Lapua Midas +, don't necessarily perform the same. Some lots of match ammo may produce more errant shots (sometimes called fliers) than others.

To illustrate, it may be possible to shoot several "good" groups only to have the next show an outlier. That outlier is usually the result of the ammo.

In short, it's not the name on the box of ammo, regardless if it's Tenex, Midas + or something else, that determines the nature of the ammo's performance.
 
It is a M77; it has the trigger upgrade, which I have, as yet, been unable to figure out how to adjust to get rid of the long take-up pull.

As I stated, I've tried a lot of different kinds of quality ammunition, and the results were always the same, at least 1 group out of 5 was over the 1/2 inch qualifier, and usually it was only 1 flier in that group which pushed it over the limit, so I'm not sure I can blame the ammunition.

Since I bought the rifle and started keeping a target log book, here are my aggs.:

Group 1 Group 2 Group 3 Group 4 Group 5 Agg. Ammunition Date

0.497 0.271 0.544 0.247 0.250 0.3618 Eley TenX 6/22/2021

0.153 0.534 0.496 0.213 0.517 0.3826 S-K Rifle Match 6/30/2016

0.668 0.299 0.275 0.294 0.427 0.3925 S-K Standard Plus 7/9/2015

0.442 0.186 0.582 0.436 0.394 0.4080 Lapua Midas+ 8/18/2021

0.259 0.388 0.297 0.727 0.543 0.4428 Eley TenX 5/31/2021

0.282 0.289 0.465 0.900 0.399 0.4670 Lapua Centre-X 8/12/2021

0.391 0.534 0.449 0.331 0.667 0.4744 S-K Rifle Match 6/23/2016

0.498 0.442 0.492 0.859 0.162 0.4906 S-K Rifle Match 9/26/2017

0.349 0.452 0.860 0.483 0.365 0.5018 S-K Rifle Match FN 7/28/2021

0.380 0.545 0.672 0.368 0.618 0.5166 S-K Rifle Match 5/29/2019

1.098 0.291 0.451 0.485 0.284 0.5218 Eley TenX 6/16/2021

0.559 0.685 0.789 0.388 0.468 0.5778 Eley Match 6/29/2021

0.523 0.960 0.360 0.987 0.513 0.6686 S-K Biathlon 7/6/2021

0.969 0.606 1.111 0.720 0.392 0.7596 S-K Standard Plus 9/1/2015

I'm going to re-shoot the Eley TenX as well as the Lapua X-Act next year as they seem, at least to me, to provide the best accuracy, at least insofar as my aggs. seem to indicate.

I've been attempting to purchase new springs, bolt washers, firing pin & whatever else I can get out of Denmark but am not having much luck because of international payment issues.

As regards your comment: QUOTE>>>>>it's not the name on the box of ammo, regardless if it's Tenex, Midas + or something else, that determines the nature of the ammo's performance. <<<<<ENDQUOTE, I respectively disagree. I've tried a number of different CCI, Winchester, Remington, Aquilla types and I was hard-pressed to get them to shoot 5 groups into less than 0.750", some couldn't even make sub 1.000" groups.

So, if all of the ammunition I've tried thus far gives me at least 1 flier in 25 shots and the rifle is an abused old club girl, might you suggest something I can try, or do you recommend I simply give up on it and accept it as is? I thought about getting one of the newer S&L rifles, but as a Southpaw, I cannot make the thumb-hole stock work for me & I do not want to go through the trouble of having a new stock made for it. I've looked at a few Annie's and just can't get excited about them nor a BRNO #4 or a 40XBRF I used to own years ago.
 
A few thoughts from me, the rifle seems capable given your Eley Tenex target with 3 groups in the 0.2's. You should have had at least a couple successful targets with how many attempts you've made so far. So what's holding it back? You've shot enough ammo that something should have worked, so I don't think it's that. Could be something with the barrel, I'd start with cleaning (rather than to say it's fatally flawed and will never shoot, I don't think that's the case either). Given it's an older rifle with an unknown history, the barrel and chamber could possibly be fouled up pretty bad. A borescope would be handy here since there is no other way to confirm. A thick carbon ring in the chamber can cause inconsistent accuracy, and they can be stubborn to remove. My prescription would be to short stroke the chamber area with JB bore paste on a tight patch for approx 100 back and forth strokes, then push the patch out to the muzzle. Patch out the paste residue, then give the whole bore a thorough brushing. That regime usually cleans out the worst of the fouling, then you can reasonably assume starting from a clean slate.

Another trick to improve consistency with sporter barrelled rifles is a barrel bedding pad near the end of the forestock. Get some black gasket making compound from Canadian tire, mask the inside of the barrel channel (makes pad removal easier if it doesn't work out), and put enough compound to form a twoonie sized pad a couple inches back from the end of the forestock (judge the amount required by how much gap there is between the stock and the barrel, final pad size to be about twoonie sized). Mask the outside of the stock to protect from overflow, trim pad material flush to the stock with a razor after curing if it squeezes out. put a piece of wax paper between the barrel and the gasket compound so they don't stick together.

If there isn't a fundamental flaw with the barrel, these two things should show an improvement in your results, hopefully giving you the successful target you seek.
 
James,

Your ammo choices and bench set up look more than adequate.

I do not think the trigger is adjustable to reduce the length of the two stage pull. From some quick research online tonight you can adjust the weight of the break by using an Allen key to turn the set screw on the underside of the trigger. It's possible that the trigger pull is throwing you off that once in 25 times.

If you are a member of Rimfire Central, there are some threads in there about improving the trigger pull and overall accuracy of these rifles.

If you do want to try to improve the rifle itself there are a few things you can do. However, put a borescope in it first to see whether it's worth investing the money. If it's a well loved old club gun the bore may have seen better days. In that case your current results may be the best you can hope for. In any case, as you mentioned you can bed the action. Check the crown with a magnifying glass. If there are any nicks, dings, etc you could have it re-crowned.
 
You could try sorting your ammo into rim thicknesses. You've been so close so many times. Do you give it ample time to cool? It seems your flyer is most often in the 3rd or 4th group. Maybe take a break after the first and second group?
 
Optic? Can't say Bausch and Lomb is a popular option. I assume you have a handle on paralax since you are a seasoned shooter.
 
jamesharrison said:
As regards your comment: "it's not the name on the box of ammo, regardless if it's Tenex, Midas + or something else, that determines the nature of the ammo's performance" -- I respectively disagree. I've tried a number of different CCI, Winchester, Remington, Aquilla types and I was hard-pressed to get them to shoot 5 groups into less than 0.750", some couldn't even make sub 1.000" groups.

So, if all of the ammunition I've tried thus far gives me at least 1 flier in 25 shots and the rifle is an abused old club girl, might you suggest something I can try, or do you recommend I simply give up on it and accept it as is? I thought about getting one of the newer S&L rifles, but as a Southpaw, I cannot make the thumb-hole stock work for me & I do not want to go through the trouble of having a new stock made for it. I've looked at a few Annie's and just can't get excited about them nor a BRNO #4 or a 40XBRF I used to own years ago.
Click to expand...

It's no surprise that CCI, Winchester, Remington, and Aguilla types of ammo don't do well. No one should expect otherwise. Keep in mind, however, that I wasn't referring to ammos such those. Many entry level match ammos (if that term can be used to describe the less expensive standard velocity offerings of SK, Eley, and RWS) will often make those North American-made ammos pale in comparison. To put it in colloquial terms, they suck. Simply put, North American ammos are not good for serious target shooting and needn't be discussed when the question is accuracy -- at least the kind to qualify for the 1/2" challenge.

The name on the box -- whether it's Tenex or Midas or something equally expensive -- doesn't guarantee that each round in the box will perform as the others in it do. Why do I say that? Because that's the nature of .22LR ammo. Just because the brand is costly, it's not a guarantee that it won't have errant shots. If you're getting one flier out of 25 that's not surprising.

The best lot of Midas I shot during the summer and fall this year fits that description aptly. It's very hard to find a lot of match ammo that is flier-free. I've not seen many. Many experienced shooters often compare match ammo to Cracker Jacks because there's usually a surprise (or two) in every box.

A club rifle that's nearly a half a century old or more should have its bore properly cleaned. As Rabid suggests, there may be a carbon ring near the chamber. If there is one, it will rob you of accuracy and it needs to go. Soak a bore mop with carbon remover solvent or something similar and insert it into the chamber and beyond. Let it soak for a while. Then brush with a brass brush and a bore guide. If you don't have a suitable bore guide, perhaps a pull through that has a brush can be used as a substitute.
 
The mention of a "Carbon Ring" is relevant when it comes to the best accuracy.
To get rid of it, JB's will work as Rabid suggested.

Personally, I use a dedicated Carbon remover for that job. One of the best I
have found is at your Chrysler dealer Parts department. It is called "Combustion
Chamber Conditioner" P/N 0VU000788AB [For the record, I do not drive Chrysler products, lol]

Apply to a loose fitting rag, and apply liberally to the area just at the front of the
rifle chamber. Let sit for 20 mins, and then wet another patch and run it through
You will see the flakes of carbon and a dark stain on the patch that is the loosened/
removed carbon.
If you have a borescope, take a look before and after, you will see the difference plainly.
Regards, Dave.

PS: do not get this stuff on a nicely finished wood stock!!
 
If this were an F class rifle.... barrel would get tossed.

You are doing some very consistent shooting. Given the ammo and number of attempts with such nice tight groups, those flyers are more then likely caused by a barrel on its last legs.

Good luck with your quest as you certainly have the consistency to get into the 1/2" group list.

Jerry
 
.22 caliber rounds are factory made, no chance to reload them, so it is what it is. However, something I have done to improve round to round consistency is to weigh the rounds and group them into similar weight categories. I have found that to help improve my results from a single lot / box of rounds.
 
Well, I'm back & it wasn't bad at all, although they say my bridge must be re-done in January before they will do the root canal, so here goes:

Gentlemen:

I shall try to respond to each of you and your comments separately.

[FONT=&quot]RabidM4U5 [/FONT]
Unfortunately, no one I know here in Winnipeg, nor at the cottage where I spend the summers, has a borescope.
I have & use GM Combustion Chamber Cleaner, which I believe, at least based on comparable MSDS sheets, is the same as the Mopar stuff. I also use Wipe-out Carb-out.
[FONT=&quot]I will try the JB Bore-paste & Carb-out again & report back.[/FONT]
Re: sporter-barrelled rifles
Would that include a barrel with a muzzle diameter of 0.850” at the 26.75” mark?
I’ll think on the gasket maker bedding pad this winter. What are your thoughts on simply cutting & using a piece of bicycle inner tube as a stop-gap measure to see if the added pressure works?
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]prairieguy [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I’ve got the trigger pull weight set the way I like it at 20 ounces.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Thanks; I’ll check Rimfire Central out.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]See my comment regarding bore-scopes above.[/FONT]
I had the crown re-done when I first got it by an old BR gunsmith who has since passed.
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]savagelh [/FONT]
Years ago, I had a rim gauge, but did not find any difference, but perhaps that was due to my rifle at the time not being able to detect the difference.
Re: ample time to cool. I have never noticed the barrel getting warm, but after each group I do stand up to stretch my legs, look through my spotting scope & have some water.

[FONT=&quot]FarmerDanz [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Sorry; I don’t mean to be flippant, but I don’t choose my optics based on popularity. I don’t think Hensoldt, Kahles, Schmidt & Bender, Swarovski or Zeiss are all that popular as a percentage when you consider how many Bushnells, Leupolds, Vortex, Scorpion, Bauska, BSA or Vector scopes there are, yet, other than some Bausch & Lombs that’s all my rifles wear.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Re: Parallax; yes, I spent an awful lot of time zeroing out parallax, then re-confirming & scribed the ocular tube at nil.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]crowellsr [/FONT]
The ammo is indeed from 1 box per group and where multiple groups with the same ammo were used, the ammunition was all from 1 lot, usually from the same brick.

[FONT=&quot]grauhanen [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Re: North American ammo is not for serious target work and needn't be discussed when the question is accuracy -- at least the kind to qualify for the 1/2" challenge.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ok, I thought that that was what you meant, but was unsure.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Re: The name on the box -- whether it's Tenex or Midas or something equally expensive -- doesn't guarantee that each round in the box will perform as the others in it do.
I realize that, but thought my chances would be better if I started with a known commodity.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]My thinking vis-à-vis fliers, and I’ve heard this for years, is that there will be fliers and you have to accept that, but the trick is to find the ammo that shoots the smallest group & hope that the inevitable flier will not be that bad to knock it too far out of the group, so that your group is still in the race.[/FONT]
Re: cleaning. When I first bought the rifle, I cleaned it with 2 part Wipe-Out Lead Out, but cannot now recall how much lead came out, unlike a few Martinis I have owned which I vividly remember yielded copious amounts. I do have, and religiously use, a custom bore guide Sinclair made for me & use Dewey rods with either Dewey or Tipton jags & new brass brushes each time, cleaned with naphtha gas between strokes. Having said that, unlike all of my centre-fire rifles, I do not clean it after every range trip; rather just once at the end of each season.
I have mentioned my use of various carbon-eaters, but will re-do it & post back my results.[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Eagleye [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dave:
See my comments above regarding carbon removal and my use of GM combustion chamber cleaner, as well as Wipe-Out’s Carb-Out, as well as my lack of access to a bore-scope.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I’ve learned the hard way that VOC’s rarely interact well with wood![/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mystic Precision [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Jerry:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ah, if it were only that easy. I believe the barrels were press fit on these, and even now I have thought long & hard about giving the old girl a present of a Kreiger, Hart, Shilen or Lilja stainless steel barrel with an EPS chamber job.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Re: those flyers are more than likely caused by a barrel on its last legs.
That is what I did not want to here.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Thank you for the kind words.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dynamic1 [/FONT]
I will try weight sorting them to see how much dispersion there is.

I think that about covers it, but if I have missed a pearl of wisdom, please remind me.

Thanks again.
 
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