Planing on getting back into blackpowder again. Last year I sold my last BP rifle and thought that's it after many years. I miss it. Last revolver was a Pietta Remington New Model Army which was a great gun. Looking at an open top 1860 Army now soon as my wallet allows. Couple months I guess. Must be a few people here who love these also. Any one have one of these old beasts?
cap&ball fun
- Thread starter lyman54
- Start date
Milanczar
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I am also looking to get into this.
Have experience with Lee Enfield percussion as part of an Army associated historical unit a while ago.
The unit had history from 1866 with the Fenian raids and operated a historical detachment with period uniforms and repro firearms much
like Fort York and Kingston.
Right now I have a Colt 45 repro but that is the 1873 version
I was looking for some BP Cap and Ball revolvers.
Just purchased a 1860 Army for BP the other day but the paperwork is bunged up because the serial number got mixed up with another gun.
Missed out on a Remington New Army which I regret. There is supposed to be a more accurate repro of this out there and one that is not so accurate. Was not sure which so I passed. May have been a mistake as I regret it.
Does anyone know if the Euroarms version of the Rem NA was the better one?
Have experience with Lee Enfield percussion as part of an Army associated historical unit a while ago.
The unit had history from 1866 with the Fenian raids and operated a historical detachment with period uniforms and repro firearms much
like Fort York and Kingston.
Right now I have a Colt 45 repro but that is the 1873 version
I was looking for some BP Cap and Ball revolvers.
Just purchased a 1860 Army for BP the other day but the paperwork is bunged up because the serial number got mixed up with another gun.
Missed out on a Remington New Army which I regret. There is supposed to be a more accurate repro of this out there and one that is not so accurate. Was not sure which so I passed. May have been a mistake as I regret it.
Does anyone know if the Euroarms version of the Rem NA was the better one?
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I do have an Army San Paolo, which became euroarms, and they are supposed to be the best replica for the 1858 Army. The pistol grip shape is smaller than pietta replica, and should match the original. Since I've never held an original, I can't comment on that, but I can assure you the grip size is definitely smaller than pietta, since I have owned both. People with large hand do not like the euroarms as much, since the trigger guard rasp against your fingers under recoil. The fit and finish is perfect, as the timming is. Never had any problem with it. It was manufactured in 1977 if I remember correctly, and I've shot hundred of round balls with it with never a problem. I would not hesitate to buy another. I also have a colt 1851 sheriff (not on my picture above) made by euroarms, and is again beautifully made.
In fact, I do have Army San Marco, Army San Paolo, Euroarms, Pietta, Uberti and Santa Barbara and all of them are great shooters and did not need much tinkering with to make them reliable. The only exception was my Santa Barbara, which I recut the hammer notch and changed the hand, trigger and bolt stop to fix timming issues.
I put Treso Amco bronze nipples for #11 cap on most of them, since they are easier to find than #10. I rarely have any issue in cowboy match with those nipples.
Milanczar
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Thanks arquebusierKebec
I do regret not getting the Euroarms now. Not like they come along every day.
Do you make your own ammunition, order on line or have a local store that carries supplies?
I do regret not getting the Euroarms now. Not like they come along every day.
Do you make your own ammunition, order on line or have a local store that carries supplies?
I roll my own ammunition. In the video above, I shot some light load (65gr pyrodex RS with 1 once lead shot) in my nearly 100 years olds 12 gauge shotgun. Then for the rifle, those were 200 gr cast from wheel weight with 35gr pyrodex P. And finally, for the remmy, I used 30gr Pyrodex P and a .454 round ball made from pure lead.
I cast all my bullets, and use mostly Pyrodex because real black powder is getting harder each year to find locally, and I keep it for my flintlock muskets and pistols. Pyrodex works great when using caps ignition, and can be used volume for volume as a direct replacement for real black. It can also be shipped, whereas real black can't be. I buy most of my stuff online from sponsors of this site.
Milanczar
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Thanks!
I am just starting off so that is all very valuable orientation type info to know.
Ah and I see that you mention the .454 bullet size for the .44 caliber guns. That is exactly what I was going to ask next!
I am just starting off so that is all very valuable orientation type info to know.
Ah and I see that you mention the .454 bullet size for the .44 caliber guns. That is exactly what I was going to ask next!
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Milanczar
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
That does sound interesting. I found some videos on youtube where they were rolling their own loads for the cap and ball revolvers using tissue paper and gluing the bullet
on top. Seems to save a lot of mess and trouble with the powder and keep things together for you to use the plunger.
Pouring the powder into the cylinders looked like it could lead to some stray grains that could cause chainfire, better to keep it contained in some way.
This is part of why I find this so interesting as well as it is part of the history of the hobby that most people know little about.
I've been using a pair of Uberti 1858's for plinking and cowboy action since I started in CAS about 7 years ago. I don't use them ALL the time but when they do appear a few times a year it's always a smile and giggle filled day. Two years ago I managed to add a couple of 1860 open top replicas to the mix. One is a newer Uberti and the other is a Navy Arms. I'm not sure which, Pietta or Uberti, was sold under the Navy Arms importer's name.
The open tops handle differently enough from the Remingtons that I enjoy having both sets for the little variety between them.
Two things to note about the open tops. First off is that the front sight is woefully short. To hit a man on horseback you pretty much need to aim at the saddle pommel to end up with a hit in the chest. For target shooting and cowboy action this means crotch aiming on Evil Roy steel plates or using a target with a larger black center and using a 6 o'clock hold on the generous size spot.
Or..... you can do what I did and replace the front sight blade with a taller blade and carefully trim it down with a file in conjunction with test shooting. The result was that the front blade ended up a little less than twice as tall as the original when the POA matched the POI. While I was doing this I also opened up and deepened the all but invisible small "v" notches in the hammers to a nice square sided "U" with a needle file as part of the process and to correct some very slight windage issues.
It was worth it though. I can see the sight picture far more clearly and at 15 yards out I can get as good a group with these open tops shooting round ball as I can with my modern S&W revolvers. I'm not in any danger of getting on the Olympic target team but those that know me say I'm generally pretty good at getting nice tidy groups. So the guns are doing OK and are a match for many good modern cartridge guns.
The other issue with the open tops is that the arbor often, almost always in fact, does not fit correctly into the barrel's arbor hole. The proper way is that the arbor should bottom out in the hole and leave you with the correct cylinder gap when it does. Then the wedge locks the arbor nose tightly against the bottom of the hole. But the reality is that the arbor is typically too short and the wedge needs to be adjusted for position to set the cylinder gap each time. And that's bad because the barrel is left "floating" on the arbor which isn't good for accuracy or durability.
The fix can be as easy as a small washer dropped into place which, through selection of sizes or filing to thickness, gives you the right shim to get the proper seating. Or you can do what I did and make up a little button of metal to fill this area and solder it onto the arbor. Some other folks have also drilled and tapped the nose of the arbor for a 10-32 shallow style round headed screw and once set for length use a locking compound to lock it in place. The thickness or adjustment being trimmed until the wedge locks tight with the cylinder gap being correct. Whatever the option something is typically needed to correct this issue.
On the other hand the Remington pattern clones don't need this work and at least in the case of my Uberti '58's they came with a taller front sight post than what is actually required so I was able to dress the sight shorter to match the POA to the POI.
So for someone wanting to get into this on a casual basis I'd suggest a Remington. Or if you can find one at a price you can stand a Ruger Old Army. The Ruger is a modern gun but they do shoot well and don't need any fussing. But this means that they are popular and that holds the price up higher.
Round ball is stupidly expensive these days when you can find it. Out of self defense the cost and availability issue finally got me started with casting. So far I'm working my way through my 60 lbs of the old scuba weights I've got and don't use any more. Buying a Lee mold and the Little Dipper pot has worked out just fine and cheap. I made my own ladle from a copper plumbing end cap with a drilled and formed hole in the side so the little ladle is self skimming. But Lee or Lyman makes a little cast iron ladle with this same feature you can buy for cheap.
Even when I have to go forth and buy my own soft lead it'll still be a small fraction of the price that is charged for round ball in the stores when you can find it.
The open tops handle differently enough from the Remingtons that I enjoy having both sets for the little variety between them.
Two things to note about the open tops. First off is that the front sight is woefully short. To hit a man on horseback you pretty much need to aim at the saddle pommel to end up with a hit in the chest. For target shooting and cowboy action this means crotch aiming on Evil Roy steel plates or using a target with a larger black center and using a 6 o'clock hold on the generous size spot.
Or..... you can do what I did and replace the front sight blade with a taller blade and carefully trim it down with a file in conjunction with test shooting. The result was that the front blade ended up a little less than twice as tall as the original when the POA matched the POI. While I was doing this I also opened up and deepened the all but invisible small "v" notches in the hammers to a nice square sided "U" with a needle file as part of the process and to correct some very slight windage issues.
It was worth it though. I can see the sight picture far more clearly and at 15 yards out I can get as good a group with these open tops shooting round ball as I can with my modern S&W revolvers. I'm not in any danger of getting on the Olympic target team but those that know me say I'm generally pretty good at getting nice tidy groups. So the guns are doing OK and are a match for many good modern cartridge guns.
The other issue with the open tops is that the arbor often, almost always in fact, does not fit correctly into the barrel's arbor hole. The proper way is that the arbor should bottom out in the hole and leave you with the correct cylinder gap when it does. Then the wedge locks the arbor nose tightly against the bottom of the hole. But the reality is that the arbor is typically too short and the wedge needs to be adjusted for position to set the cylinder gap each time. And that's bad because the barrel is left "floating" on the arbor which isn't good for accuracy or durability.
The fix can be as easy as a small washer dropped into place which, through selection of sizes or filing to thickness, gives you the right shim to get the proper seating. Or you can do what I did and make up a little button of metal to fill this area and solder it onto the arbor. Some other folks have also drilled and tapped the nose of the arbor for a 10-32 shallow style round headed screw and once set for length use a locking compound to lock it in place. The thickness or adjustment being trimmed until the wedge locks tight with the cylinder gap being correct. Whatever the option something is typically needed to correct this issue.
On the other hand the Remington pattern clones don't need this work and at least in the case of my Uberti '58's they came with a taller front sight post than what is actually required so I was able to dress the sight shorter to match the POA to the POI.
So for someone wanting to get into this on a casual basis I'd suggest a Remington. Or if you can find one at a price you can stand a Ruger Old Army. The Ruger is a modern gun but they do shoot well and don't need any fussing. But this means that they are popular and that holds the price up higher.
Round ball is stupidly expensive these days when you can find it. Out of self defense the cost and availability issue finally got me started with casting. So far I'm working my way through my 60 lbs of the old scuba weights I've got and don't use any more. Buying a Lee mold and the Little Dipper pot has worked out just fine and cheap. I made my own ladle from a copper plumbing end cap with a drilled and formed hole in the side so the little ladle is self skimming. But Lee or Lyman makes a little cast iron ladle with this same feature you can buy for cheap.
Even when I have to go forth and buy my own soft lead it'll still be a small fraction of the price that is charged for round ball in the stores when you can find it.
If you are interested by the history behind them, two great channels I follow on youtube are https://www.youtube.com/user/capandball and https://www.youtube.com/user/duelist1954
Here is a video on how to make your own paper cartridge:
I've tried all the variation and all the possible ways shown on Internet and read in magazines, but for me, the simplest of all those method is also the one I have the most success with. Load each chamber from a powder measure, put a lubricated felt wad (or if you are cheap like me a lubricated fiber or cardboard wad or even nothing) and a round ball to top it off.
I've never had any chain fire, which contrary to belief most often come from ill fitted cap and not from the chamber mouth. If you use correct ball size, they will fit so tight in the chamber that it is impossible to get a spark in there from the mouth of the chamber. If you put grease over mouth, you will see that after a couple shots, all that grease is melted and not sealing the remaining chambers anyway. It keep the fouling soft tough, so you can shoot more cylinder before it start to bind. I do not think they ever greased the mouth in the old time, it is a mess by hot day and would have been impractical for soldiers of those times.
I've also tried with various filler, like corn meal, to seat the ball as close to the chamber mouth as possible, but never saw any difference in accuracy.
It is a lot of fun to try all you read and see, but in the end, use what work best for you.
Here is a video on how to make your own paper cartridge:
I've tried all the variation and all the possible ways shown on Internet and read in magazines, but for me, the simplest of all those method is also the one I have the most success with. Load each chamber from a powder measure, put a lubricated felt wad (or if you are cheap like me a lubricated fiber or cardboard wad or even nothing) and a round ball to top it off.
I've never had any chain fire, which contrary to belief most often come from ill fitted cap and not from the chamber mouth. If you use correct ball size, they will fit so tight in the chamber that it is impossible to get a spark in there from the mouth of the chamber. If you put grease over mouth, you will see that after a couple shots, all that grease is melted and not sealing the remaining chambers anyway. It keep the fouling soft tough, so you can shoot more cylinder before it start to bind. I do not think they ever greased the mouth in the old time, it is a mess by hot day and would have been impractical for soldiers of those times.
I've also tried with various filler, like corn meal, to seat the ball as close to the chamber mouth as possible, but never saw any difference in accuracy.
It is a lot of fun to try all you read and see, but in the end, use what work best for you.
Milanczar
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Thanks guys! This is amazing. I got to try a friends and I really liked it.
I have to say that I like what I see and hear here and finding more out about it I think I have made a good choice and can't wait to try it out.
Great information.
Has really helped me out with knowing which way is up and getting together my short list for the equipment I am going to need.
Would have had the firearm already but the dealer has the serial numbers mixed up and fortunately that got caught before I walked out with it.
Still that means I have to wait for it to get straightened out. At least they are going to ship it to me at no cost.
Really looking forward to trying this out with my own gun.
I have to say that I like what I see and hear here and finding more out about it I think I have made a good choice and can't wait to try it out.
Great information.
Has really helped me out with knowing which way is up and getting together my short list for the equipment I am going to need.
Would have had the firearm already but the dealer has the serial numbers mixed up and fortunately that got caught before I walked out with it.
Still that means I have to wait for it to get straightened out. At least they are going to ship it to me at no cost.
Really looking forward to trying this out with my own gun.
Hi. I shoot an Uberti Remington reproduction. My brother shoots a Pedersoli. I load with a loading stand. I have found that once I changed the nipples on the Uberti, I have had no problems. The Pedersoli never has a problem firing. It tends to gum up before the Uberti. I think it may have been machined to tighter tolerances. Just run a brush through the cylinder. Both are equally accurate to shoot. I have looked at Colt replicas and think the Remington pattern is likely better built. Also the back sight on the Remington is on the top strap, the Colt's on the hammer. I wonder what Colt was thinking? Since they went away from the open top to the Remington pattern, I guess the saw the light.
Cap and ball is way more fun than these modern cartridge types. Stick with the cap and ball.
Kevin
Cap and ball is way more fun than these modern cartridge types. Stick with the cap and ball.
Kevin
I agree that grease over the ball doesn't really do what it is supposed to, softing the fouling in the barrel as it is blown away anyways. Homemade wads are easy to make. The '58 Rem. I had was Piette and very accurate and never had a chainfire with .454 balls. The open tops will need more care in cleaning I suppose but they catch my eye. I cast the balls and make tubes out of wax paper with a measured amount of Pyrodex P.
Just bought myself a very nice Pietta 1858 Remington. Does anybody know of a retailer in the Montreal area that sells the powder, caps, and .454 balls. Seems like you have to buy these components from all over the country. Higginson Powders has Pyrodex P but at an extra $30 hazmat fee for delivery. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
You can have a look at www.arcinter.com and www.lebaron.ca
Near Quebec, you have www.latulippe.com
You should be able to find #11 caps and Pyrodex P quite easily, but good luck finding .454 round ball.
