Carbine Course Questions

be sure the rifle is cleaned, thoroughly before, during and after day one and before and during day 2. The last thing you want or need is a gun that craps the bed because it's dirty.
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i agree with making sure your gun is clean an lubed on day 1, but frankly after the course starts the only maintenance i would do is wipe it down, briefly clean chamber and lube it..... frankly pat rogers has the most info on running guns for course (his panteo video is great)

http://www.eagtactical.com/includes/tng/pub/tNG_download.asp?id=d7f95b1e5458b7a84ebd63e9008e0e60

overcleaning a gun will do more damage then undercleaning it..... and frankly if it cant run 1000 rounds, in 2 days (with re-lubeing)... out of 5 and 10 round magazines then something is wrong, frankly during my courses the best investment i made was showing up with LOTS of preloaded magazines (50 of each)..... yes your still going to have to top some partial mags up at lunch, but at least you wont be "that guy" that only has 5 magazines and is struggling to keep his mags topped up, stay hydrated and eat every hour to keep not only your body sharp, but also your mind, if you dont have to rush your going to feel a lot better..... even so at the end of the day your going to be sore and stiff

another suggestion, is when you break between drills to top up your mags the best thing you can be doing is emptying your partial magazines into an ammo can (if you have enough mags to make it thru to lunch) and then toppining up the magazines from empty..... i have seen several times where people under the stress of the course manage to muscle on another round into thier pistol/rifle magazine and then wondering why the gun is running like crap.....seriously, take your time and count your rounds. i use the 100 rnd mtm boxes that go 10 rounds wide by 10 rounds deep, each row equald a loaded magazine, or if your using loose ammo from an ammo can bring a towel and scoop 10 rounds out at a time and lay them on towel before loading magazine.

call me ocd/paranoid but i want my guns to run the best they can.
 
TinkerBell said:
i agree with making sure your gun is clean an lubed on day 1, but frankly after the course starts the only maintenance i would do is wipe it down, briefly clean chamber and lube it..... frankly pat rogers has the most info on running guns for course (his panteo video is great)

http://www.eagtactical.com/includes/tng/pub/tNG_download.asp?id=d7f95b1e5458b7a84ebd63e9008e0e60

overcleaning a gun will do more damage then undercleaning it..... and frankly if it cant run 1000 rounds, in 2 days (with re-lubeing)... out of 5 and 10 round magazines then something is wrong, frankly during my courses the best investment i made was showing up with LOTS of preloaded magazines (50 of each)..... yes your still going to have to top some partial mags up at lunch, but at least you wont be "that guy" that only has 5 magazines and is struggling to keep his mags topped up, stay hydrated and eat every hour to keep not only your body sharp, but also your mind, if you dont have to rush your going to feel a lot better..... even so at the end of the day your going to be sore and stiff

another suggestion, is when you break between drills to top up your mags the best thing you can be doing is emptying your partial magazines into an ammo can (if you have enough mags to make it thru to lunch) and then toppining up the magazines from empty..... i have seen several times where people under the stress of the course manage to muscle on another round into thier pistol/rifle magazine and then wondering why the gun is running like crap.....seriously, take your time and count your rounds. i use the 100 rnd mtm boxes that go 10 rounds wide by 10 rounds deep, each row equald a loaded magazine, or if your using loose ammo from an ammo can bring a towel and scoop 10 rounds out at a time and lay them on towel before loading magazine.

call me ocd/paranoid but i want my guns to run the best they can.
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Then there are other courses that do not want you to load magazines until you get your load out.
There are also courses which do not allow 10 round magazines to force more mag changes.
Finding out what is required for a course is recommended.
If your firearm cannot go a full weekend without being cleaned then it is a toy not a defensive weapon.
A couple of drops of lube in the bolt at lunch break is the most I will do.
I have taken a course in which we had a torrential downpour.
The firearms were all stripped at the end of the day to displace all the water.
 
jg007 said:
Whys that? If youve ever taken a level1/2 course you are qualified to have a meaningful opinion on what you ran/would change/ what worked what didn't/etc. 7.5' is specific. Maybe u ran one. Maybe someone in your course did. Etc
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What's a "Level 1" course? What's a "Level 2" course. It's not like there is a nationally standardized curriculum for carbines. Each instructor does their own thing.

Each instructor should also be able to tell you the minimum number of mags you need, ammo counts (and hopefully they don't double that a couple of days before the event..grrrrrr), if a pistol is required or not, if you need a sling etc.

Also, a competent and realistic instructor will account for Canadian mag limits and proved you time to bomb up between strings. Consider getting stripper clips and an mag charger to speed this up.

As for the guy who brings 50 mags, that great but it's $1000 worth mags. That's the tuition of a couple weekend courses. Clips and a charger guide are more cost effective.

As for gear, it's personal. Pretty much everybody runs stuff that is somewhat different than the next guy. There is no ideal setup, and few that are horrible (except universal nylon holsters, if it fits every handgun....it won't fit yours worth a damn)
 
Shoot what you want to shoot and get really good at what you shoot. For a Level 1 carbine course it really shouldn't matter that you're using a PDW. I'll call a Level 1 course heavily marksmanship focused, basic manipulations only and single shooter only (no two person drills). Pay VERY close attention to the previous comment about muzzle discipline with a PDW. This is key and will likely be the thing gets the instructors most on edge about using PDW's. It is VERY easy to loose muzzle discipline with a PDW unless that skill is already deeply integrated into your manipulations. By deeply integrated I mean you already do it naturally under stress. I'm not sure about how much Agoge changes their curriculum at indoor ranges, but at their outdoor range expect to do some physical activity to get your heart rate and breathing up to demonstrate how this changes your groupings. I suspect if you're just getting into this kind of training then your manipulations are not deeply integrated yet. So you are going to want to over-exaggerate your movements pretty much to the point of the slow kid on the bus to show the instructors that your muzzle discipline is squared away. Sounds silly? You'll know pretty quick if you realize that an instructor is spending a disproportionate amount of time around you.

This shows up when people start doing Level "x" stuff such as high-low two person barricade shooting. That short muzzle makes it really easy for the low person to stand up and put his head right in front of your muzzle if your technique and awareness are not absolutely correct. Throw in fire and movement and ending up in that position and its VERY easy for those who don't have it deeply integrated to create an unsafe situation. This is where using that PDW can really become a problem. If you're not doing this kind of thing on your course then don't worry about it. But if you're planning on working yourself up to this level and still use your PDW, then focus on getting the manipulations pristine all the time.
 
Devious - thanks, fully understand why the PDW length can be a negative from a safety / training perspective of the newer shooter
Tink - great to have you back almost full time now ;), ill make sure the weapon is clean and not overcleaned! good advice on what to expect
Thump - agree that you should be able to run hard for more than a weekend without failure, but unless i bring a backup, i dont want to be cleaning my weapon while instruction and drilling is happening (costs too much money to miss out)

really appreciate the food for though guys, great replies
 
Lots of choices out there with respect to gear. It all boils down to what you have and what you end up liking based on the course of fire. Lots of guys use plate carriers/vests others use battle belts. If you look at the winners of CQB matches, you'll see a wide variety of gear being used. What's common is that they train with it enough to be safe/competent with it. As long as the pouches retain your mags, allow you to quickly pull them out and don't get in the way - it should be good. I started with taco pouches on a battle belt with a drop leg g-code holster then switched to taco pouches on a plate carrier cause I liked how much closer the mags were during reload. Lots of better guys run a battle belt setup but I like my plate carrier.
Regarding barrel length, if your "weapon of choice" is going to be the PDW then train with the PDW. You might give up on longer range accuracy but for under 75 yards I don't think it is that big a deal. One thing is for sure, if you don't train with it, you're not gonna get better with it :)
Personally, I run a 10.3 barrel AR for CQB distances, I find it a good balance for accuracy, speed and pointability. If I needed to engage targets regularly between 100-500 then I'd go with an 18 or 20 in barrel. Horses for courses...
Have fun on the course.
 
I have 4+ courses under my belt and enefgee's first post has some excellent advice.

Your rifle is not ideal and your fellow shooters may hate you but if it's all you have use it.

I bring 5+ mags for each gun. I run my battle belt and plate carrier/plates because it's what I run for 3 gun.
Bring lube and spare parts if you have any. I always bring more ammo than I think I need.

Do you have a holster and mag pouches/battle belt/chest rig you normally run? If you do run that for the class, you will figure out what does and doesn't work and your instructor will help you adjust it as necessary. If you don't have any of that stuff, don't go and spend a bunch of money on gear just yet. Borrow or buy something inexpensive but works like a blade tech holster and mag pouches for 2 pistol and 2 rifle mags. Run that for the course and see what others are running that works and doesn't work. You will have a better Understanding of gear that may work for you from watching others.

Stay hydrated, go with an open mind and have fun.
 
TinkerBell said:
i agree with making sure your gun is clean an lubed on day 1, but frankly after the course starts the only maintenance i would do is wipe it down, briefly clean chamber and lube it..... frankly pat rogers has the most info on running guns for course (his panteo video is great)

http://www.eagtactical.com/includes/tng/pub/tNG_download.asp?id=d7f95b1e5458b7a84ebd63e9008e0e60

overcleaning a gun will do more damage then undercleaning it..... and frankly if it cant run 1000 rounds, in 2 days (with re-lubeing)... out of 5 and 10 round magazines then something is wrong, frankly during my courses the best investment i made was showing up with LOTS of preloaded magazines (50 of each)..... yes your still going to have to top some partial mags up at lunch, but at least you wont be "that guy" that only has 5 magazines and is struggling to keep his mags topped up, stay hydrated and eat every hour to keep not only your body sharp, but also your mind, if you dont have to rush your going to feel a lot better..... even so at the end of the day your going to be sore and stiff

another suggestion, is when you break between drills to top up your mags the best thing you can be doing is emptying your partial magazines into an ammo can (if you have enough mags to make it thru to lunch) and then toppining up the magazines from empty..... i have seen several times where people under the stress of the course manage to muscle on another round into thier pistol/rifle magazine and then wondering why the gun is running like crap.....seriously, take your time and count your rounds. i use the 100 rnd mtm boxes that go 10 rounds wide by 10 rounds deep, each row equald a loaded magazine, or if your using loose ammo from an ammo can bring a towel and scoop 10 rounds out at a time and lay them on towel before loading magazine.

call me ocd/paranoid but i want my guns to run the best they can.
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I've seen too many 1911's fail miserably on handgun courses due to lack of cleaning - it's made me sensitive to the dirt issues with all guns (had to be sensitive about something - that's pretty much it). It takes a couple of minutes to do a strip/hose/wipe on the break. I've never seen a gun crap out on a course because it was too clean, and I'm too cheap to take the chance.
 
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enefgee said:
Last thing - if you're bothered by your guns getting beat like this (great pic, absolutely love it) you'll probably not be happy at the end of the course - this is what guns look like after a day on a good course (even if you're sensitive to dirt).
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Nope, it will be a basically new rifle and i plan to sh!t kick it.
 
That is a great pic (thump_rrr's).

After 12 days at Agoge: (the clean ones were the backups)



I could have used a PDW on that course.
 
Your course is indoors.
You won't have a high round count and you won't be sh!tkicking your guns.

Double up on ear pro, and get electronic muffs if you don't already have them so you can hear what Cyclops has to say.
He's Brazilian (not that there is anything wrong with that) so he sounds kinda goofy/phagity :d

Get knee protection. I like internal type or ones with a soft shell if they are worn over the pant. A hard plastic shell will slip and slide on the finished concrete floor of the range.

Bring quality ammo.

Shake out your gear prior to the course.

Have fun and learn lots.
 
jg007 said:
Devious - thanks, fully understand why the PDW length can be a negative from a safety / training perspective of the newer shooter
Tink - great to have you back almost full time now ;), ill make sure the weapon is clean and not overcleaned! good advice on what to expect
Thump - agree that you should be able to run hard for more than a weekend without failure, but unless i bring a backup, i dont want to be cleaning my weapon while instruction and drilling is happening (costs too much money to miss out)

really appreciate the food for though guys, great replies
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I always bring a second pistol and rifle.
The rifle is usually a loaner by the first afternoon or second morning.
 
Have a dump pouch. They are pretty handy.

Dont have a crappy holster.

If you are using ten round mags, make sure that your chosen mag pouches work with short mags.
 
effinggoof said:
Have a dump pouch. They are pretty handy.

Dont have a crappy holster.

If you are using ten round mags, make sure that your chosen mag pouches work with short mags.
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The course I was at this summer the instructor suggested we just use 5/30 mags as part of the course was practicing reloads.
One thing I noticed was that most of the guys running LAR mags or ATRS mags were having more failures than the guys just running pmags.
Practice your clearance drills before the course, I was surprised how long it took some of the guys to get their rifle cycling again after a jam.
 
If this is a boom boom boom tactical course, I will say bring whatever firearms you consider tactical for your usage.

In my humble opinion, if this course is about "shooting" a carbine faster on target and more accurately, a 8" PDW is not a good training tool. First of all, a 8" PDW in 5.56 is not really a carbine and it is a 50 yrd firearm in reality. I will not shoot a carbine exactly the same way I will shoot a 8" PDW or a SMG type firearms if I want to be fast on target and accurate, with short LOP and short handguard. They are designed for being stashed away and put under cover.

Remember all the old urban ops stuff, people look like they are trying to shoot a C7 like a SMG. That is exactly the problem i am trying to point out.

Of course, I know nothing. Just my personal opinion. YMMV
 
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