Carbon wrapped barrels

1899

1899

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I was reading up on barrels and looking at how to have the best combination of weight and stiffness. I have never been a fan of the carbon sleeves on barrels, but understand that a new type of carbon-wrapped barrel is available from Advanced Barrel Systems.

From what I gather the old sleeve type wraps effectively prevented the steel barrel from cooling down. The new system uses a process which allows rapid thermal transfer, and will actually cool 300% faster than an all steel barrel (of the same profile).

The weight savings seem to be fantastic:
a 24-inch, # 7 contour ABS carbon-wrapped barrel will weigh about 2.5 pounds compared to about 5.5 pounds for a steel barrel of the same length and contour.
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See: http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek092.html

There seem to be lots of benefits...so why aren't these barrels used more in competition? What are the negatives?
 
1899 said:
There seem to be lots of benefits...so why aren't these barrels used more in competition? What are the negatives?
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As a competitive target rifle shooter (irons and slings) I want the weight. A 14 lbs rifle is easier to hold steady than a 9 lbs rifle. Recoil would be another factor, lighter rifles have more felt recoil than heavier rifles.
 
Thanks for the response Maynard. I am not looking at using the rifle in competition, but figured if they were fantastic then they may be used by folks. I'd like something to play with at longer ranges and also do double duty as a hunting rifle.

I am interested in the 7mm RSAUM, or maybe the 7mm-.300 WSM. I am still in the early planning stages.
 
Here is a 20" ABS barrel in 223 on a tuned 700 action with McMillan edge HTG stock and atlas bipod, just over 8lbs with the monster SIII on it. The new company that bought ABS is now called proofresearch. They have a video on line where they fire a 3 shot group, unscrew a barrel, smash a cinder block using the bbl as a club, and screw the barrel back on and shoot a group about the same size. I wanted a bbl in carbon to make a light enought rifle to carry pushing for coyotes all day, accurate, and able to withstand shooting 50 rounds in a half hour while maintaining accuracy. From experience, I can tell you the rifle will shoot 3/8" 5 shot groups with black hills blue box bthp. The dirtier the barrel and the hotter it gets, seems to help the groups. It doesn't like much factory ammo, but is good with reloads. $900 (when i got it anyway) for a barrel that still needs chamber, threading and crown you ask? I would buy another in a heart beat. Matching gun in 308 someday....

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DMS1 - that looks really good and very similar to what I was thinking. I really like the looks of the McMillan Game Scout, and with Edge fill I hear they come in at around 26oz. How much does your stock weigh?
 
1899 said:
DMS1 - that looks really good and very similar to what I was thinking. I really like the looks of the McMillan Game Scout, and with Edge fill I hear they come in at around 26oz. How much does your stock weigh?
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The stock was 28-29 ozs before I added a bunch of Devon under the barrel....
 
Competition shooting is expensive enough as it is, now double the cost of barrels(which some shooters go through several every season) and from being broke you go into debt.
 
That's why you don't build a competition gun with a carbon fiber wrapped barrel, you build a light weight accurate hunting rifle using a carbon fiber wrapped barrel. As maynard mentioned, you want as much weight weight as possible when it comes to competition gun.
 
1899 said:
There seem to be lots of benefits...so why aren't these barrels used more in competition? What are the negatives?
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COST - as low as possible
LONGEVITY - as long as possible
VARIABLES - as few as possible
INDUCED STRESS - minimize

CF wrapped barrels fail on all counts or at least do not offer any tangible gains.

how much do you want to trust a layer of glue?

If mass was the only reason, we would just add more CF until we gained back the mass. Approx twice as thick and even more $$$

But if it helped, shooters would use it.

The only thing that matters is the first 3" of rifling. When that goes, the rest is just nice for the next owner.

One thing the CF barrel isn't ideal for, barrel set backs.

As a way to lower costs, practise barrels can be made from set back match barrels. Unless a CF barrel has an equal or longer steel shank, can't be done.

then what about the muzzle end. OK, more steel, less CF. At what point do you say, why have the CF at all?

How thin before the steel sleeve becomes vulnerable? If too thick, what's the point. If too thin, well.... that is not good.

Anyone want to take a $1200 roll of the die?

I would rather have 3 match quality barrels to draw from for the same investment.

YMMV

Jerry
 
The one positive of these barrels is heat transfer, if as advertised they should theoretically shoot cooler therefore last longer. The 'variables' don't really matter if the system works, if the glue holds, if induced stress isn't an issue, if you leave enough shank for set back (better yet if nitriding/melonite works as advertised) or coat the bore, if you're shooting off a bipod, and it all works making tiny groups why not embrace the new technology. Price is a problem, but if in theory as above you get a lighter/stiffer/cooler/longer lasting barrel it might be just the ticket as you won't be changing barrels half as often. What is needed is a proper test, two identical barrels side by side, one regular, one wrapped and coated all tested in the same caliber, same reloads, monitored over time until they're shot out. That should settle the debate to some degree.
 
I agree this may not be any earth shattering/cost effective technology for benchrest competition, however not everyone competes. The trend these days seems to be 20+ pound, 30" barrelled, 1/2 mile shooting "sniper" rifles. These rifles have their place, and I also enjoy them. What I wanted was a similarly "capable" rifle that I could hike a mile down the rail road tracks with to get a shot at a ground hog without killing myself. For me, the weight was the major factor, not the price. If you're building a multi thousand dollar rifle, why not put a barrel on it that will allow you to take the rifle into the bush and shoot a deer/bear/coyote etc? Just like 3d archery, I used to have a target setup and a hunting setup for my compounds, but found practicing all summer long with my hunting setup and equipment give me more confidence in the tree stand.
 
Both posts above are bang on. Problem is that the factories making the CF barrels have not done the tests - which seem really odd. Who better then them to invest the time and money.

But they have not stepped up.

As for weight, I always consider the 18lbs sniper anchors to be quite a silly set up. Why not 10lbs and 8lbs of ammo/rations/WATER?

So I have always built my rifles around portability and lowering the mass has been important.

Here contours play a big role. No problem getting a quality #5 contour barrel to shoot many rds and stay sub MOA way out there. Match barrels are already properly stressed relieved so can tolerate being very hot without warping.

Fluting and voila, where is the weight penalty?

I am a huge techie BUT it has to work. Unfortunately, not much has changed in the last 15yrs of barrel making that hasn't already been tried over the last 150yrs. Tooling and tolerance have become more repeatable BUT the levels of accuracy really haven't changed much.

I am very interested in nitriding. Used in many industrial applications, that process is proven to make some metals really wear resistant. Can it help our precision barrels?

One US company thinks so but it sure has been slow to adopt.

This is a results based sport - show us the holes in paper at the competitive level. Then shooters will take notice.

Who need this funky oddly shaped Russian wannabe?

Well, anyone NOT shooting the 6PPC in SR BR today?

So far CF has had more sizzle then steak. Do the tests (3rd party of course), show the results, get the product out there in the hands of those that know a thing or two.

Let the real world decide.

Jerry
 
Regarding 3rd party testing, the link in my initial post states:

If you look at the charts at right (from the Univ. of Nebraska lab tests), you can see that the ABS carbon barrel actually sheds height faster than an all-steel barrel. Also notice that, on the ABS carbon barrel, the muzzle stays cooler than the chamber. By contrast, on the all-steel barrel, when the chambered reached 190° C, the muzzle reached 262° C! That all-steel barrel got very hot at the end, something that can degrade accuracy.
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I guess my initial question included competition, and that was probably incorrect. I figured if these barrels did what they said they would then serious top level competitors would be using them. Maybe, for all of the above noted reasons, they don't.
 
I have also read an article in the past where they put these ABS barrels on a 6 barrel Gatling gun at like 6000 rounds per minute and used ir and heat cameras to show the difference in heat dissipation. Most of those articles seem tough to find now, just tons of speculation on the Internet without any evidence. I think this technology is being shopped to the US military in a big way, perhaps that is why they are not publishing more info?
 
Mystic Precision said:
I am very interested in nitriding. Used in many industrial applications, that process is proven to make some metals really wear resistant. Can it help our precision barrels?

One US company thinks so but it sure has been slow to adopt.
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I've done a fair amount of internet research and have yet to find someone who's compared them side by side until the barrels were shot out. There is a military test (Singapore if I recall), said it was good but more from the point of longevity not much about accuracy.

On one forum a fellow made a good point, since nitriding done at 900F (again if I recall) he didn't see much benefit since the temp at the throat is way more than that. Once you've essentially put a blow torch to that area and the steel has worn some given the heat (nitriding isn't that deep) the throat will start moving so what's the point. If you can't stop wear at the throat and muzzle there's really no benefit, other than easy of cleaning and some corrosion resistance, but you already get that from custom stainless barrels.

Like you said show me that it works and I'll spend the money, until then you only have my interest.
 
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