Carcano feeding and headspace question.

[Muskyhunter1]

Just picked up a carcano carbine and took it to the range a couple of times. I noted the clip feeds rather poorly and is possibly and indication it may be worn out. Time to find a new one if I can find one - I guess. I was shooting light cast (.266 dia 140 grain gas check) and single loading them into the chamber. I noticed the primers were backed out and some got punctured on the empties. I was getting really good accuracy I might add.

I went to the range a second time and this time I loaded the cast rounds at medium pressure levels. I was reading that a potential low pressure problem can sometimes be primers backing out. I single fed the rounds again and the primers were backing out again. To get rid of the rest my loads I loaded the stripper clip to try and get it working correct. The rounds came out perfect now...........go figure.

It did some research and located some info where a fellow stated " the carcano is a controlled feed action and the extractor will not override the rim of a cartridge that is just dropped into the chamber. this is an issue with some head space issues." Has any any other carcano shooters had this same issue as well?

I know I need to get the head space checked but I don't have the gauges and have no idea where to find them right now. I have read some techniques of using masking tape and solder on the back of the shell casing and measuring the tap/solder "go - no go dimensions". Anyone had any luck with these processes?

Thanks.

 

[flying pig]

i haven't used any duct tape or solder, that just sound messy. A gent on another site told me a trick for measuring case head clearance, not headspace. If you are reloading headspace is pretty irrelevant in a bolt action anyway because you can minimize the case stretch on the first firing by placing a rubber band on the case just up from the case head and this will hold the case head against the bolt face on firing so the case walls don't grip the chamber before the head rests on the bolt face. This will make the case shoulder blow out instead of causing the case to stretch rearward causing a head separation. Then you neck size the case only and only use that brass in that rifle from then on. Now to measure case head clearance, take a new unfired case and load a FIRED primer partway into the primer pocket, so it just stays there is best. Then you load the case into the rifle and close the bolt. When the shoulder stops at the front of the chamber the bolt will seat the primer into the case further. Extract the case and measure the height that the primer protrudes from the case, this is your case head clearance, or how much the shoulder will move ahead on first firing if you use the rubber band trick, or roughly how much that case head will flow rearward if fired without the band. I wonder if the thing about the extractor is true though, maybe it will have to be removed before you can do this measurement?

 

[buffdog]

.
The Carcano was designed for "controlled feeding." That means, the cartridges are fed from the clip and are pushed into the chamber by the bolt. When these cartridges are pushed by the bolt, they slip BEHIND the extractor onto the bolt face. If you drop a cartridge into the chamber then close the bolt on it, sometimes the extractor will push it in too far and create a bit of excess headspace before the extractor snaps over the rim. Also, there have been reports of extractors being brokenf by people who load a cartridge singly this way.

 

[mbogo3]

Did someone re-chamber it to 6.5x54 MS perhaps? One trigger or two? Harold

 

[sunray]

"...masking tape and solder..." That tells you exactly nothing. Neither do empty cases, tea leaves or ouija boards. Only proper headspace guages work. However, the symptoms you have are about excessive pressure, not bad headspace. Those would be hard extractions, difficulty opening the bolt, et al.
What's the load?

 

[camster]

i haven't used any duct tape or solder, that just sound messy. A gent on another site told me a trick for measuring case head clearance, not headspace. If you are reloading headspace is pretty irrelevant in a bolt action anyway because you can minimize the case stretch on the first firing by placing a rubber band on the case just up from the case head and this will hold the case head against the bolt face on firing so the case walls don't grip the chamber before the head rests on the bolt face. This will make the case shoulder blow out instead of causing the case to stretch rearward causing a head separation. Then you neck size the case only and only use that brass in that rifle from then on. Now to measure case head clearance, take a new unfired case and load a FIRED primer partway into the primer pocket, so it just stays there is best. Then you load the case into the rifle and close the bolt. When the shoulder stops at the front of the chamber the bolt will seat the primer into the case further. Extract the case and measure the height that the primer protrudes from the case, this is your case head clearance, or how much the shoulder will move ahead on first firing if you use the rubber band trick, or roughly how much that case head will flow rearward if fired without the band. I wonder if the thing about the extractor is true though, maybe it will have to be removed before you can do this measurement?

Careful..the rubber band/o-ring trick is for rimmed cartridges!

OP, I think you may have answered your own question, and it was supported by buffdog's (always) sage advice...There are many rifles that must be fed properly for the cartridge to fit under the extractor. Single feeding them can be tricky, and a broken extractor can be the reward!

 

[fredqc]

buffdog is right. I dont think you have a headspace problem. Carcano's rarely have number on bolt (i think roma was putting numbers) for a good reason.

.
The Carcano was designed for "controlled feeding." That means, the cartridges are fed from the clip and are pushed into the chamber by the bolt. When these cartridges are pushed by the bolt, they slip BEHIND the extractor onto the bolt face. If you drop a cartridge into the chamber then close the bolt on it, sometimes the extractor will push it in too far and create a bit of excess headspace before the extractor snaps over the rim. Also, there have been reports of extractors being brokenf by people who load a cartridge singly this way.

 

[coltseries70]

The Carcano created a very big head space about 50 years ago. (too soon)

 

[Muskyhunter1]

Thanks lads some great advice. I really appreciate your help and that is what makes this place so awesome.

Flying Pig - love the primer test. Great idea.

Buffdog - I agree that must be the case. It does not feed too well right now as I guess I need to get a new clip for my rifle. Mine is showing that it has been used a lot.

Sunray - The load was a Lyman 140 grain cast GC with 8.0 grain of unique (light load). The moderate load was the same Lyman cast bullet with 16.0 grain of 2400 (Max is 18.0 grains). The bullet was sized to .266 dia and the groove in the rifle is .268 so I got lots of room. I don't think any of these loads would display any pressure issues.

Mobogo3 - I took the vernier calipers to an empty and it is 6.5 carcano. My rifle only has the one trigger and it is a fairly nice pull. I thought of th3 6.5x54 MS too as I knew a number were converted into that caliber to sell them in the US as you couldn't get carcano ammo easily.

fredqc - Thanks . You offered to sell me a new clip for my carcano a few weeks ago. I asked you how much (x2) and you never replied. Is you mail box full? You still interested in selling one so i can get my rifle working?

Thanks Lads. I plan on doing up some full loads next time i go to the range and will let her fly but only after feeding with the magazine as best I can. I will report back on the results. The carcano is a neat little rifle with a lot of history and a nice shooting little round.

Thanks again.

 

[bigedp51]

Without headspace gauges you can still get your head clearance by just starting a fired spent primer in your primer pocket with your fingers. Then seat the primer by closing the bolt on this test round. The amount the primer is protruding is your head clearance, and head clearance is controlled by shoulder bump.

Below, when you seat the primer with your bolt the "air space" between the bolt face and the rear of the case is called head clearance. When adjusting your full length resizing dies the thumb rule for shoulder bump is .001 to .002 for bolt actions and .003 to .004 for semiautomatics.

If the primer is protruding over .006 with your test cartridge your over resizing your cases.

And now for grins and giggles..................

If you take drugs or smoke pot and read my postings you may forget the rubber o-ring is for cartridges with rims. The small thin o-ring holds the case against the bolt face and prevents case stretching in the base web area.

After fireforming the .303 British case you neck size only and the case then headspaces on the shoulder.

On the Enfield rifle at maximum headspace of .074 and commercial non-military cases you can have as much as .017 head clearance or "air space" between the bolt face and the rear of the case.

Below a brand new Remington .303 British case and Remington doesn't know where to put the shoulder of the case.

Thanks lads some great advice. I really appreciate your help and that is what makes this place so awesome.

Flying Pig - love the primer test. Great idea.

Thanks again.

This posting is dedicated to the flying pig and his short memory.
(and sharing a crack pipe with the Mayor of Toronto)

 

[flying pig]

Without headspace gauges you can still get your head clearance by just starting a fired spent primer in your primer pocket with your fingers. Then seat the primer by closing the bolt on this test round. The amount the primer is protruding is your head clearance, and head clearance is controlled by shoulder bump.

Below, when you seat the primer with your bolt the "air space" between the bolt face and the rear of the case is called head clearance. When adjusting your full length resizing dies the thumb rule for shoulder bump is .001 to .002 for bolt actions and .003 to .004 for semiautomatics.

If the primer is protruding over .006 with your test cartridge your over resizing your cases.

And now for grins and giggles..................

If you take drugs or smoke pot and read my postings you may forget the rubber o-ring is for cartridges with rims. The small thin o-ring holds the case against the bolt face and prevents case stretching in the base web area.

After fireforming the .303 British case you neck size only and the case then headspaces on the shoulder.

On the Enfield rifle at maximum headspace of .074 and commercial non-military cases you can have as much as .017 head clearance or "air space" between the bolt face and the rear of the case.

Below a brand new Remington .303 British case and Remington doesn't know where to put the shoulder of the case.

This posting is dedicated to the flying pig and his short memory.
(and sharing a crack pipe with the Mayor of Toronto)

Awe come on now BigEd, just because I have the attention span of a gnat sometimes doesn't mean I have a drug problem of any kind! Mostly I shoot a lot of 303, and have a lot to learn still. I forgot about the rimless case thing, honest mistake, and I was blatantly wrong. Now can we all just be friends? ha ha.

 

[Muskyhunter1]

Wow I am impressed. Bigdp51 man - you got the stuff.

If I took drugs or smoke pot and read your postings that would make me a friend of JT's and/or Robs. Sorry was that my outside voice.

All kidding aside really interesting stuff. Thank you very much.

 

[bigedp51]

Wow I am impressed. Bigdp51 man - you got the stuff.

If I took drugs or smoke pot and read your postings that would make me a friend of JT's and/or Robs. Sorry was that my outside voice.

All kidding aside really interesting stuff. Thank you very much.

I like using illustrations and animated .gif images because when you can actually see something it is easier to understand. Having said that in another posting here a Canadian is complaining about small butts which I find very odd.

I mean why would anyone complain about butt size, so this animated "educational" image is for the Canadian poster TargetAcquired who is complaining about small butts.


I hope he doesn't start complaining about the fore end.....................

 

[chofo]

ohmysweetgeezus
im in love

 

[PanzerSchreck]

Hey muskyhunter1, I have a set of OEM go and nogo Carcano gauges I could let go for an honest price (not cheap though). These come straight from the factory.