Carcano shooting

[hogie]

Well I had an "eventful" day today trying out my new 1941 Brescia Moscetto.

Day went like this: 1 clip of the PPU soft point .264 that's for sale everywhere. Fed and shot just fine, but can't comment on accuracy. I was shooting on the back 50, kneeling, in dying light at a metal gong at 50 meters. 1 round hit the plate at the top edge, other 5 were misses - presumably high. I had forgot my glasses, it was getting dark, and I was burying the post in the bottom of the notch and using a 6 o'clock hold. Next time I'm out with it, I'll bring my glases, a bench, and big paper targets to see what it's really doing. FWIW, windage was about right.

So function test went well with the .264 bullets in factory rounds.

I decided to try the leftover loads that had shot well in a Modelo 1941 rifle I had a few years back - noting the 41's don't have progressive rifling and have shallower lands.

First round - no issues, but stouter than the factory PPU. Hit about 14 inches high on a paper target (again, kneeling in bad light, probably not my bext effort and the elevation was likely more me than the sights).

Second round - felt like the first round - except the bolt would not open. I eventually got it open by slapping the handle hard a few times. when it came out, the extractor had slipped off the rim and the spent primer fell out of the rifle. Not a good sign. Brass was seized in the rifle. I ejected the rest of the clip and packed up - I was understandably purturbed.

When I got home, I easily knocked out the shell with a piece of .630" brass rod. Here's what I found:

Notice the primer pocket is visibly enlarged. I tried dropping a fresh WLRM primer in the pocket it fell right out again - so the pocket is significantly swelled larger.

Here's round number 2's casing (bottom) next to round No.1's casing (top). Both shot the hornady .267" bullet:

Notice the chamber mouth made a distinct frosted ring around the base of the case on the second round. This is the thickest part of the case head, but it swelled out 7 thou in diameter (!). I'm hugely lucky the case didn't fail - thanks PPU for making good brass.

Someone will ask, but I followed Hornady's load manual for this bullet to the letter. Here is the recommended data for this bullet:

I went with 30 gr varget over a WLRM primer in virgin Graf/PPU brass. Clearly well within the recommended load range. This nearly blew up the case in a progressive twist moschetto.

The rifle checks out OK, thankfully. No bulges, no damage, no measurable change in headspace. But I think firing these again would be a very bad idea in this carbine.

This week I'm going to break down the remaining 48 rounds I have into components and stop using this bullet in carcanos.

So there you go Andy - a verifiable bad experience with the Hornady bullet including pictures. Before today, I was in the "hogwash" camp on these bullets over-pressuring guns, but no longer.

I have 100 of the .268" PPU rounds coming that I'll try, but those have a much shorter bearing surface and thinner jackets - I think they'll likely do better.

I had a bad experience with the Hornady bullets as well. https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/912891-Lucky-day?highlight=Lucky+day

 

[R005t3r]

That's because they aren't doing it right.

The most accurate bullets I've shot out of match rifles are hand swaged using J4 copper jackets and weighed chunks of lead wire.

The only difference with the out of the box factory ammo is to not use premium bullets, with multi thickness jackets.

I've quite litterally shot several thousand such bullets with what I consider to be acceptable accuracy out of both Carcano and Arisaka rifles. These aren't MODERN rifles built with CNC equipment. As such they were built for a different accuracy standard.

I can remember a fellow that lurks here on CGN and makes the odd comment. I gave him a couple of hundred of the swaged .270 x 130 grain bullets for his M38 Arisaka. He got all snively because the best they would shoot was around 3 inches at 100 yards.

That was more than acceptable by the standards the rifle was built to attain.

You folks are comparing apples to oranges.

As for cast, not a thing wrong with that IMHO, especially if it gives you a comfortable feeling. Gone that route with both lubed and powder coated. Not a real fan of cast bullets but they are definitely much easier on the bore.

Not to piss on your cornflakes but I got super lucky with an M38 Arisaka. Shot five rounds of Norma (when you could still get it) into and inch at 100 yards, off bags. Loved that rifle!

 

[bearhunter]

Not to piss on your cornflakes but I got super lucky with an M38 Arisaka. Shot five rounds of Norma (when you could still get it) into and inch at 100 yards, off bags. Loved that rifle!

You're not pissing on anything.

You got a ONE OFF and were lucky that the Norma ammo worked well in it. If you're claiming anything else???????????????

 

[R005t3r]

You're not pissing on anything.

You got a ONE OFF and were lucky that the Norma ammo worked well in it. If you're claiming anything else???????????????

Nope not claiming anything else. Just sharing a happy moment. Happy New Year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Andy]

that makes sense Andy, I had not thought of doing that. If it works, let me know. I;d be very interested. I'm thinking a .25" driving band base would work rather well in these. Even if the rest of the bullet were .257, .260, or maybe even .264.

I just checked and "only" have: 0.264"; 0.266"; and 0.270".

I'll look into a 0.256" or 0.257" to see if I can still get them.

 

[Andy]

I had a bad experience with the Hornady bullets as well. https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/912891-Lucky-day?highlight=Lucky+day

I remember that! Thanks for sticking around and piping in. We might better understand that now.

 

[Claven2]

I just checked and "only" have: 0.264"; 0.266"; and 0.270".

I'll look into a 0.256" or 0.257" to see if I can still get them.

You could try swaging 3/4 of the bullet to .264?

 

[bearhunter]

Nope not claiming anything else. Just sharing a happy moment. Happy New Year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Same to you.

I've gotten lucky with a few rifles like that, but then I've also had the opportunity to cherry pick from stockpiles of thousands in one warehouse on several occaisions.

I've never been able to find an Arisaka that would shoot 1 moa or less with closed base .264 ammo. I have a few thousand .265 diameter, cupro-nickle, 159 grain, exposed lead core at the base bullets that will shoot into two minutes out of my Type I Jap Carcano, on a good day but 3 inches is the norm.

 

[Andy]

You could try swaging 3/4 of the bullet to .264?

I could and will, but I'd like to see how a "bore-rider" might work, just out of curiosity. A 0.257" bullet drops freely down the bore of my M91 and a "G" drill (0.261") does not, so I'll see what happens with the Carbine when it arrives. I'd like a tiny bit of resistance to seating, so I might go 0.259" and then if I ever cast for 25 Cal (although I'm sure I won't) it can serve double duty.

You see bore-riders with cast bullets, but also with solids, as they are difficult to engrave with the rifling. Most commonly they're "banded" so that most of the bullet rides on the lands while the bands engrave into the rifling in the grooves. See the popular Barnes TSX below:



With the thick jackets on these bullets that might be the problem that solids addressed. In fact if you look at several of the designs used by the Italians, it looks like they employed those principles - thick jacket, groove-sized bands and a slightly smaller body. That's from a photo, so we'd need a bullet to know for sure.



At some point I'll section a Hornady Carcano bullet to see just how think the jacket really is. I haven't seen any pictures, so maybe people are just assuming it's very thick. Anyways, if it's well beyond the thickness of most jackets for most of its length, then it could be suggested that Hornady should have known better.

 

[Andy]

https://www.tsnloiano.it/note-sulla-ricarica-del-65x52-carcano-per-fucili-e-moschetti-1891/

Of note in the above linked document is the following statement:

THE RELOADING OF THIS CALIBER WITH UNSUITABLE POWDERS WITH A PROGRESSIVENESS EQUAL TO OR GREATER THAN THE VIHTAVUORI N140 TOGETHER WITH THE USE OF BULLETS IN .268 CALIBER HAS SHOWN TO EXPOSE YOU TO RISKS OF OVERPRESSURE THE OUTCOME OF WHICH IS UNPREDICTABLE AND POTENTIALLY DEVASTATING FOR THE GUN AND SHOOTER.

So the Italians are aware of the "issues" with the Hornady 0.268" and their solution is (I think) to use powders as fast or faster than N140, e.g. Varget and Reloder 15, as Hornady suggests.

 

[tiriaq]

It seems to me that a jacketed bullet with a bore riding forward portion, and a .268" rear part (maybe a length to match the amount of bullet seated in the case neck) would engage the rifling nicely without causing a pressure spike.

 

[Paul_T]

Interesting video.

I was wondering if I could use my 6.5x55 neck sizer for the Carcano and this shows someone doing it.

I use Redding bushing dies so would just get a new bushing for the Hornady .267 pills to keep what I like as .002 neck tension.....

Are the #2645 Hornady's readily available? I'd have to keep them away from my regular #2640 Swede .264 160's....
Based on some of the issues people are having with the .267's maybe I should go another way. Not really wanting to go casting....

edited - looks like Hornady dropped the .267 160's from their lineup.

 

[bearhunter]

It seems to me that a jacketed bullet with a bore riding forward portion, and a .268" rear part (maybe a length to match the amount of bullet seated in the case neck) would engage the rifling nicely without causing a pressure spike.

I agree

 

[Andy]

We've all heard that the Hornady #2645 Carcano bullet has a "very thick" jacket, but how much thicker than other bullet is it?

I found that easy to determine. I had #2645 (0.268") and a #2640 (0.264") 160 gr bullets on hand, both of very similar construction and with open tips, so I just heated them with a torch and let the lead run out leaving only the jacket.

#2640



#2645



#2640 was left with a jacket weighing 47.7 grs, and #2645 left a jacket weighing 73.4 grs, so we can conclude that #2645 uses a jacket an average of about 50% thicker than used in the #2640.

Is that (subjectively) "a lot thicker"? Doesn't matter - we know (objectively) that it's about 50% thicker.

 

[MiG25]

We've all heard that the Hornady #2645 Carcano bullet has a very thick jacket, but how much thicker than other bullet is it?

I found that easy to determine. I had a #2645 (0.268") and a #2640 (0.264") 160 gr bullets both with an open tip, so I just heated them with a torch and let the lead fun out leaving only the jacket.

#2640

View attachment 644356

#2645

View attachment 644360

Drumroll please... my bet is the jacket is the same.

 

[Craig0ry]

I could cut one of my 2640's on half, I don't have a 2645 to compare

 

[MiG25]

According to the edit I was wrong, I assumed the 264 bullet was just run through a tighter die. Looks like Hornady made up the difference in diameter by using a thicker cup of copper.

 

[Andy]

According to the edit I was wrong, I assumed the 264 bullet was just run through a tighter die. Looks like Hornady made up the difference in diameter by using a thicker cup of copper.

That's a fair assumption, but the #2640 is 0.264" until the cannelure, and then tapers to about 0.255" near the tip, while #2645 is pretty much a cylinder of just under 0.268", and to keep its weight at 160 grs it's a tiny bit shorter.

If Hornady had just enlarged #2640 by about 1.4% in dimensions (0.2675" to cannelure, then taper to 0.259") they would have been a bit heavier than 160 grs (~165 grs), but they could have knocked off a bit of weight with the thicker jacket (since copper weighs about 25% less than lead), and maybe had a bullet that didn't behave poorly.

 

[Lahti]

2 of 6 types of PPU carcano ammo use .268 bullets, the rest use .264. * marks the right sized ones.
A-352 123 gn soft point and A-605 FMJ are the right size. Those are the PPU codes, some online stores list that. That is 2018, can't find a more recent catalog. Proper size PPU loaded ammo has been around since at least then.
Most websites have the product number there somewhere, for example Wolverine lists PPNA 208, for their 139 grain fmj's. These are the A-208's, and .264 bullet diameter. Some boxes even have .264 on the outside.
Probably marked with the PPU code physically on the boxes too somewhere, sadly don't have any handy now to see where. If ordering online and you can't tell best ask the store if they can tell you.

Yes, it's annoying that it isn't all the same diameter or clearly listed online but at least this might help you find out without calipers what you've got or might order. If you're angrily staring at a box of .264's, they do ok in some Carcano's...

Source is PPU catalog here: https://www.prvipartizan.com/download/PPU_2018.pdf
This is part of the Carcano product info table.

Ctg. Bullet Bullet Bullet Bullet Barrel Velocity Energy (J) Trajectory (cm)
Art. Art. Type Wt (g) Wt (gr) Lgth (mm) (m/s) (J) 100 200 300
Energy (J) Trajectory (cm)
A-205 B-117 SP 8,0 123 610 785 2465 +2,7 -7,8 -40,6
A-207 B-084 SP BT 9,0 139 610 740 2464 +3,2 -8,8 -44,7
A-208 B-083 FMJ BT 9,0 139 610 740 2464 +3,2 -8,8 -44,7
A-352* B-352 SP 8,0 123 610 785 2465 +2,7 -7,8 -40,6
A-605* B-605 FMJ BT 9,0 139 610 740 2464 +3,2 -8,8 -44,7
A-118 B-118 SP RN 10,1 156 610 700 2474 +4,1 -11,7 -61,8

 

[Eaglelord17]

That is about double the thickness of the jacket which matches what I have read online about them having to double the thickness due to jacket loss on the .268 bullets.