Friend of mine got laid off at Savage Arms in Lakefield, again, and she's interested in pursuing a career in firearms. She would like to be a gunsmith, but has no idea how to pursue it. Does she apply to a gunsmith who would take her as an apprentice? Are their courses she must take? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Career as a gunsmith.
- Thread starter Slithery
- Start date
How does she plan on supporting herself while becoming a gunsmith but more importantly how does she plan on supporting herself after becoming a gunsmith?
To the USA for the training in one of the better schools for a couple of years will be costly.
And then the tool expense to set up and start working and developing a clientele... for many years she will need outside support.
If you do a search it has been discussed to death on this forum before...
To the USA for the training in one of the better schools for a couple of years will be costly.
And then the tool expense to set up and start working and developing a clientele... for many years she will need outside support.
If you do a search it has been discussed to death on this forum before...
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Not trying to be a killjoy here cause we sure need more Gunsmiths to replace those that will retire but take a quick look at how much it will cost to set up a machine shop.
Lathe, milling maching, drill press, sandblaster, grinders, TIG welder preferably, hand tools etc
Then look at how much it costs you to get 'smith work done. convert back to an hourly wage and then figure you better be real quick to make a living.
My suggestion to her is keep the dream alive. Go take some machining/tool and die course. Become a tradesperson/machinist.
Set up a shop and do work for manufacturers like aerospace, oil and gas, auto (learn mandrin). Now you can run a machine shop and get paid enough to thrive....hopefully.
By this time, she will be skilled at all the machining that goes into gunsmithing. Does she really need a course now? She has a shop that supports itself and the ability to now do guns for gravy.
The quality gunsmiths like Guntech have been doing this through the time when shooting was a much larger part of society. They built a solid reputation and business and didn't have to pay thousands just in liability insurance alone.
Start up costs today are horrendous and go see if any bank will finance a 'gun' business. They will a machine shop....
I have personally looked down this road and decided that it would be better financially to go another route.
Now that I have a day job, I can go back and do a gun business on the side. Maybe in time, the hobby job can take over the daily grind.
Lot's more time and effort but if you love this hobby, it's worth it.
Jerry
Lathe, milling maching, drill press, sandblaster, grinders, TIG welder preferably, hand tools etc
Then look at how much it costs you to get 'smith work done. convert back to an hourly wage and then figure you better be real quick to make a living.
My suggestion to her is keep the dream alive. Go take some machining/tool and die course. Become a tradesperson/machinist.
Set up a shop and do work for manufacturers like aerospace, oil and gas, auto (learn mandrin). Now you can run a machine shop and get paid enough to thrive....hopefully.
By this time, she will be skilled at all the machining that goes into gunsmithing. Does she really need a course now? She has a shop that supports itself and the ability to now do guns for gravy.
The quality gunsmiths like Guntech have been doing this through the time when shooting was a much larger part of society. They built a solid reputation and business and didn't have to pay thousands just in liability insurance alone.
Start up costs today are horrendous and go see if any bank will finance a 'gun' business. They will a machine shop....
I have personally looked down this road and decided that it would be better financially to go another route.
Now that I have a day job, I can go back and do a gun business on the side. Maybe in time, the hobby job can take over the daily grind.
Lot's more time and effort but if you love this hobby, it's worth it.
Jerry
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
bsp, not true at all. If someone started with a machining shop and made a comfortable living, a gunsmithing side line would mak sense. The rates would be in line with what we expect and the shop would thrive.
Go in with a 6 figure debt load and try and start a smithing business, the creditors would be all over that poor soul in a few months and they would be toast.
To survive in the gun game, you either got to have deep pockets or do it as a second job.
Believe when I say that I wished it wasn't so...
Jerry
Go in with a 6 figure debt load and try and start a smithing business, the creditors would be all over that poor soul in a few months and they would be toast.
To survive in the gun game, you either got to have deep pockets or do it as a second job.
Believe when I say that I wished it wasn't so...
Jerry
- Location
- calgary alberta
Jerry I think you pretty much have all the right answers here.
35 years ago I took the gunsmiths course in Trinidad, that took 2 years, in that 2 years I had NO income.
Since then have purchased over 1/2 million dollars worth of machines and tooling. The hard way, as banks would rather rent deck chairs on the Titanic than possibly chance lending money to a politically incorrect business.
Finding a place to set up a "gun shop" today is a real chore as insurance is cost prohibitive, buying a building here is cost prohibitive as well, which accounts for many gunsmiths working from home and "running naked" with insurance.
The first several years until there are enough guys willing to trust you to work on their guns is hardest. I find it funny that your average gun owner has to have a dozen positive references and know all about a gunsmith before letting him touch his $50.00 Enfield, yet thinks nothing of giving his $65000.00 truck keys to a service advisor to hand off to a nameless face with some tools in the mechanical repair shop at the dealership.
Canada is in desperate need of up and coming gunsmiths and gun makers, unfortunately the reality is that can take a great many years of starvation before it becomes a decent living, to open a firearms business in this country is truly swimming upstream.
It took me most of my adult life to attain my dream of making guns for a living, I would not trade it now for anything, but be aware it is not an easy go, and every year gets even harder with the governments all trying to be the only armed persons on the continent.
yup....guys will spend more time checking out a gunsmith than a urologist.....guess we know what's more important to a lot of shooters...
same guys will b1tch and complain about aluminium this, and plastic that on a rifle but have no problem with cast aluminium wheels on their Cummins...or plastic box liners.......
If anyone reading this is seriously considering getting into this field, don't be completely turned off by the start up costs. If you are currently employed and want to start this up as a hobby and slowly turn it into a business it is VERY doable on a limited budget.
Used machinery can be picked up at a reasonable price if you look around. Just make sure you have someone with you that knows what they are looking at. A Southbend 10 or 12" lathe and a half decent Bridgeport type mill will get you in the game. The other pieces Mystic mentioned will be required eventually as well, but you can start without them. Once you are rich and famous (note the sarcasm) you can spend thousands on CNC and the likes and make superguns.
The long and short of it is that there is nothing in Canada right now to help you become a gunsmith. The States has all of the courses. As mentioned before, your clientelle will take years to build and starting out as a hobby will help you develop this and not go broke.
I am FAR from calling myself a gunsmith, but I have a fairly well set up shop and I am slowly learning to do different things properly and safely. My one recommendation would be to focus on a specific area first. For example, small repairs, scope mounting and refinishing to start. Then as you become more proficient through your own practice in doing large jobs, start offering that to your customers. Focusing on a specific firearm for a period of time will help build proficiency in that area as well ie 1911, 870, Rem 700 etc.
Just my 2 cents.
Used machinery can be picked up at a reasonable price if you look around. Just make sure you have someone with you that knows what they are looking at. A Southbend 10 or 12" lathe and a half decent Bridgeport type mill will get you in the game. The other pieces Mystic mentioned will be required eventually as well, but you can start without them. Once you are rich and famous (note the sarcasm) you can spend thousands on CNC and the likes and make superguns.
The long and short of it is that there is nothing in Canada right now to help you become a gunsmith. The States has all of the courses. As mentioned before, your clientelle will take years to build and starting out as a hobby will help you develop this and not go broke.
I am FAR from calling myself a gunsmith, but I have a fairly well set up shop and I am slowly learning to do different things properly and safely. My one recommendation would be to focus on a specific area first. For example, small repairs, scope mounting and refinishing to start. Then as you become more proficient through your own practice in doing large jobs, start offering that to your customers. Focusing on a specific firearm for a period of time will help build proficiency in that area as well ie 1911, 870, Rem 700 etc.
Just my 2 cents.
- Location
- calgary alberta
CyberK
Good post, I agree that to start off with smaller less expensive machines is a good way to go. I started off that way as well. To spend huge on machines at first usually means you will only loose them due to not being able to afford the payments. There are some GREAT deals to be had, especially now on next to new machines. Hand tools for the most part are not terribly expensive individually, but do add up in a hurry.
I could not agree more about focusing on 1 or 2 types of work you want to do, get good at it. Trying to be all things to all people increases your investment in tooling and can hamper your potential.
Good post, I agree that to start off with smaller less expensive machines is a good way to go. I started off that way as well. To spend huge on machines at first usually means you will only loose them due to not being able to afford the payments. There are some GREAT deals to be had, especially now on next to new machines. Hand tools for the most part are not terribly expensive individually, but do add up in a hurry.
I could not agree more about focusing on 1 or 2 types of work you want to do, get good at it. Trying to be all things to all people increases your investment in tooling and can hamper your potential.
Wow ATR,
I have a lot of respect for small shops that work there way up to a good reputation (like you and the other smiths in this thread), but your posts make me conclude one thing: what a sad state of affairs...
Where do you see Canadian gunsmithing going down the road?
I have a lot of respect for small shops that work there way up to a good reputation (like you and the other smiths in this thread), but your posts make me conclude one thing: what a sad state of affairs...
Where do you see Canadian gunsmithing going down the road?
- Location
- calgary alberta
Honestly, I think the gunculture is in trouble, but then again I think that about society in general. When I started into this trade mechanics actually rebuilt carbs, starters and alternators, I learned these skills as well, not being able to afford to pay a mechanic to fix my car back then.
Today most everything is remove and replace, it is quicker, and in todays world, everything must be fast, even the cops down south always ask to see your licence, or let me pat you down or check you out "real quick".
Time is money and many times it IS quicker and cheaper to replace a part than make it, therein lies the problem, the art of actually making something small and precise that will function well for a long time, is dieing. So are other trades like watchmakers and shoemakers for that matter.
Society today has become more fixated with quantity and returns on the dollar than quality and pride of workmanship. Tupperware stocks come to mind here, nice checkering on them. Nothing like the nice warmth of feel and lovely grain of black plastic.
Todays youth, and I know I am generalizing, do not seem to have the patience to work at something that by nature starts off slowly, like becoming a gunsmith. To take courses in machining then spend time not making huge $$ while 1 learns about the workings and kinks of firearms, deters many from the trade, they can get a good paying job making oilfield equipment parts, have benefits and a pension plan all without having to work too hard, or being responsible for the daily workings of the business or dealing with the assorted government bodies, right out of school.
I say this based on my own experience with my son who could take over a sound business, that is doing a good business and is paid for.
He is enrolling in the machinists course at SAIT and could learn a great deal in just working for me taking what I was taught for free. Chances are that when he gets his journeymans ticket he will look for a job paying far more than he would be worth to me, as even as a jouneyman machinist his gun knowledge is minimal, hence his actual value to my business is low until he gains some expertise on gun building and repair.
Barrel maker Ron Smith has experienced the same situation with his sons, they can make more $$ and have less headache and benefits working for a machine shop than at home making barrels.
Unfortunately that is just reality today.
I have some very old Colt revolvers, I marvel at the quality of workmanship they have, especially given the tools that Colt had to work with in 1847.
I only wish I had that amount of time, talent and patience to produce something as precisely made and finely finished even with todays tooling.
Given that the worlds governments being hell bent on disarming its lawful citizens, I am not seeing a rosey future for the firearms industry.
My best advice to anyone wanting to get into gunsmithing today, is make sure you have a back up plan. A trade you can work at that may be related in part, but could be the main source of income if need be, I believe is essential.
The learning curve in this business is long, getting a viable income level takes time, and to be able to change from gunsmithing to something else on short notice should the governments succeed in making our country truly a society of victims, I think would be prudent.
I sincerely hope that there are some younger folks who are willing to spend life "swimming upstream" to take over for us old guys, lord knows we need them, "swimming upstream" gets very taxing the older you get.
Exactly how to get into this trade nowadays and still make ends meet in the beginning is a good question.
one step sideways
from reading all of the above it would seem this person's best course might be to become a machinist first, which appears at the moment to be an in-demand trade, and then work part-time for an established gunsmith. Here in Winnipeg, at least 3 shops have gone out of business in the last 3 years, and used equipment and parts inventory might be available, who knows?
My perspective as a former commercial pilot is not to listen to nay-sayers. If you love it, do it. Maybe it will work out, maybe not, but you will never waste time wondering "what if....."
from reading all of the above it would seem this person's best course might be to become a machinist first, which appears at the moment to be an in-demand trade, and then work part-time for an established gunsmith. Here in Winnipeg, at least 3 shops have gone out of business in the last 3 years, and used equipment and parts inventory might be available, who knows?
My perspective as a former commercial pilot is not to listen to nay-sayers. If you love it, do it. Maybe it will work out, maybe not, but you will never waste time wondering "what if....."
Thanks for that informative post, ATR. Part of what you describe can, I guess, be described by the mind-set of today's youth, which I'm all to familiar with, since I'm just a couple of years out of University .
Most people going into University nowadays are strapped for cash going in, since they're living away from home, on a tight budget. Since most major universities are in large cities, they get accustomed to the urban lifestyle (accomodation, nightlife, business/services-oriented careers, etc.), which is getting expensive especially with the rising housing/rent costs Canada is observing. With all this, it should be no surprise that the vast majority will go with the "safe" option of seeking a career that offers instant returns and guaranteed clientele.
Just my take on things.
.Most people going into University nowadays are strapped for cash going in, since they're living away from home, on a tight budget. Since most major universities are in large cities, they get accustomed to the urban lifestyle (accomodation, nightlife, business/services-oriented careers, etc.), which is getting expensive especially with the rising housing/rent costs Canada is observing. With all this, it should be no surprise that the vast majority will go with the "safe" option of seeking a career that offers instant returns and guaranteed clientele.
Just my take on things.
- Location
- calgary alberta
I agree with you 100% Never give up on the dream, just make sure you have alternate plan B to fall back on until plan A either succeeds or fails completely.
Not eveyone is cut out to ride the rollercoaster of finances being self employed usually means. The rewards for working at something that is totally yours to me is worth all the KD I ate in years gone by. The thought of working for someone else and being told what to do has no appeal to me, I just hate seeing guys get into a situation only using the positive sides of the story and not knowing what the potential downsides are.
- Location
- calgary alberta
Thanks for that informative post, ATR. Part of what you describe can, I guess, be described by the mind-set of today's youth, which I'm all to familiar with, since I'm just a couple of years out of University
Most people going into University nowadays are strapped for cash going in, since they're living away from home, on a tight budget. Since most major universities are in large cities, they get accustomed to the urban lifestyle (accomodation, nightlife, business/services-oriented careers, etc.), which is getting expensive especially with the rising housing/rent costs Canada is observing. With all this, it should be no surprise that the vast majority will go with the "safe" option of seeking a career that offers instant returns and guaranteed clientele.
Just my take on things.
I think you have it right on the head. The world in general has changed, I could afford the schooling partly on grant from the government, and with help from my parents.
Nightlife and material things meant less, and I believe peer pressure was alot less 40 years ago. And I think our dollar went alot further than it does today.
I talk with young doctors and lawyers from time to time and the debt load they mention from schooling scares the hell out of me.
Aviation was mentioned above, ask any recently trained helicopter pilot about chasing a dream. leave school $50,000 in dept and less then 50% will get a job in the industry (as "ground Support" making minimum wage). Less then half of those will ever see their way to a pilot seat.
if it's your dream, and you have the endurance to see it through, go for it. but be prepared for a rough ride.
Having seen ATR's shop, and all the toys he gets to play with, I can see the attraction to the trade!
Good Luck
