cartridge/bullet ethics of hunting Moose.

[flashman2]

A shoulder shot is the same as a hip shot!!?? Time to get a book on game anatomy. Just like shooting a human through the chest from shoulder to shoulder, the same shot on game is immediately effective. If your observations suggest otherwise, it means either your bullet failed, you misidentified the location of the shoulder, or you missed.

Sigh.

Humans don't walk with our shoulders.

We walk with our hips.

Breaking the bones necessary for locomotion is the main goal of a shoulder shot on game, with paralysis and death by exsanguination being the secondary aims. Human shoulders are not necessary for locomotion, human hips are. Hence the analogy that immobilizing a human by shooting through the hips is the equivalent of a shoulder shot on a quadruped.

I also didn't say it wouldn't be immediately effective. In fact, I said precisely the opposite, but I suppose you chose to overlook that. What I did say is that there's a difference between immediately effective and immediately lethal, and they shouldn't be confused. Just because an animal crumples in place doesn't mean it dies any faster than one shot through the heart and/or lungs. I would submit that a lot of those "DRT" stories aren't actually accurate; it still takes you several minutes to approach and find the animal, which is plenty of time to bleed out, or worse die through suffocation from paralysis. As much or more time as it takes from a heart/lung shot. Last deer I shot through both lungs ran 30 yards and was unconscious in less than ten seconds. I've made high shoulder shots where the animal was immediately anchored and paralyzed, but took (or would have taken) longer to die without a follow up shot to speed up exsanguination or stop the heart. Just breaking bones and severing a spinal column will result in a longer and more painful death than death by destruction of the heart or rapid exsanguination.

 

[flashman2]

Sure, using a bullet outside it’s parameters can lead to problems. But that doesn’t mean there haven’t been poor designs or poor manufacturing. When a bullet manufacturer re-designs a line of bullets, (or discontinues them) there was probably a design problem.

It could be, for sure. But it could also just be design improvement. EG, there was ZERO wrong with the old A Max line, but they were replaced with the ELD Match. Nothing wrong with the old ones, the new ones are just better.

 

[Boomer]

Sigh.

Humans don't walk with our shoulders.

We walk with our hips.

Breaking the bones necessary for locomotion is the main goal of a shoulder shot on game, with paralysis and death by exsanguination being the secondary aims. Human shoulders are not necessary for locomotion, human hips are. Hence the analogy that immobilizing a human by shooting through the hips is the equivalent of a shoulder shot on a quadruped.

I also didn't say it wouldn't be immediately effective. In fact, I said precisely the opposite, but I suppose you chose to overlook that. What I did say is that there's a difference between immediately effective and immediately lethal, and they shouldn't be confused. Just because an animal crumples in place doesn't mean it dies any faster than one shot through the heart and/or lungs. I would submit that a lot of those "DRT" stories aren't actually accurate; it still takes you several minutes to approach and find the animal, which is plenty of time to bleed out, or worse die through suffocation from paralysis. As much or more time as it takes from a heart/lung shot. Last deer I shot through both lungs ran 30 yards and was unconscious in less than ten seconds. I've made high shoulder shots where the animal was immediately anchored and paralyzed, but took (or would have taken) longer to die without a follow up shot to speed up exsanguination or stop the heart. Just breaking bones and severing a spinal column will result in a longer and more painful death than death by destruction of the heart or rapid exsanguination.

Neither is a game animal's major organs located between the hips. If you chose a lower shoulder shot, say a third of the way up the body, the heart is destroyed, the major arteries are severed, and the lungs are badly damaged. With such a shot death comes quickly and humanely. Usually a high shoulder shot is a mistake since there isn't much up there except the spine, and finding the spine from broadside can be tricky, since its often lower than anticipated.

 

[flashman2]

Neither is a game animal's major organs located between the hips. If you chose a lower shoulder shot, say a third of the way up the body, the heart is destroyed, the major arteries are severed, and the lungs are badly damaged. With such a shot death comes quickly and humanely. Usually a high shoulder shot is a mistake since there isn't much up there except the spine, and finding the spine from broadside can be tricky, since its often lower than anticipated.

I suppose we need to define the term. To me, a shoulder shot is through the scapula/humerus joint, and a high shoulder shot is through the scapula. I agree a high shoulder seems to serve little purpose when so many better shots are available. It might look dramatic, but as you say the odds of it inflicting a nearly immediately fatal wound are low.

On both moose and deer the scapula/humerus joint is forward and above the heart. On a moose you could reasonably hit that joint and clip the great vessels leading to the heart, which is just as good (or... better, if you like stuffed roast moose heart, and indeed even better to drop blood pressure as quickly as possible), but on a deer you'd need a raking shot to break one shoulder and also hit the heart. You're also at the very forward edge of the lungs, and will cause far less damage than a shot directly through the middle of them. It's not possible to break both shoulders and clip the heart on a deer, unless you manage to hit it at the exact moment in a step when all three elements could be aligned.

Personally, unless there's a pressing need to anchor something on the spot, I greatly prefer 1/3 ish of the way up the body directly in line with the leg. Just high enough to miss the humerus/ulna joint... or the equivalent point of aim for angled, raking and frontal shots. You're gonna hit the heart or great vessels, do the maximum damage to both lungs, and waste as little meat as possible, all while ensuring the quickest possible loss of consciousness and death outside of a c spine or brain shot. Plus as it's at the bottom of the chest cavity it results in an excellent blood trail that's quicker to develop. Usually not needed though cause you should see or hear where the animal crashes.

 

[Philthy1]

With the amount of bad shooting, and bad hunting practices I see, caliber isn't even an issue. I give huge props to all of you CGN guys who have actually thought it through.