CAS Cap and Ball

John in B.C.

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I am interested in getting into CAS and would like to try cap and ball revolvers. I have shot blackpowder front-stuffers for many years so I am well aware of the fouling/cleaning issues.
I have been looking at the brass framed repro's. Anyone have any experience with them-pro or con?

:canadaFlag:
 
I shot the Canadian Cowboy Action Nationals last year, where a black powder handgun shooter started a fire that destroyed 3 of the stages on the second day of the match. For those ranges that use flax bales as back stops, be advised some clubs might not welcome you!
 
If you want to shoot cap and ball revolvers, you should take a serious look at the Remington clones or the Ruger percussions. They seem to be the choice of most of the serious C&B shooters that I have seen. The Colt style C&B pistols seem to be hard to keep running as spent caps want to fall into the action and bind up the cylinder. Just my 2 cents worth as I am not a C&B shooter so I can't claim to be an authority on the subject.
 
Thanks for the input. My understanding is the '51 Navy revolver had a real problem in this regard. Apparently you have to tip the gun to side as you #### it to let the cap fall clear. I think that is hilarious :D The later revolvers don't seem to have the same problems. A lot of what I have read agrees with what you say as far as the Remingtons go. They and their clones are built much stronger than the Colts and have a reputation for better reliabilty.

Not as classic looking though.
 
I would recommend not using cap and ball guns for more than the odd time. Some stages are written with additional reloads on the stage. Also when you are busy loading your guns for each stage you are not able to help out with the other tasks required by everyone at a shoot. (picking up brass, counting hits on targets, manning the loading and unloading tables, scorekeeping, etc.
 
Surely someone out there has some experience with these brass framed guns. I looked on the SASS wire and the feed back there is definitely mixed. However the weight of opinion seems to be they are okay with moderate loads. Think I'll go for it.
 
John in B.C. said:
Counting hits? I thought the targets were steel plates and the scorers listened for the hits. Not so?

Have you been to a match? No it's not that easy. Can you tell the difference between the sound of a hit on the target stand compared to a hit on the target? What about a hit on the wrong target? I have found it hard to hear the difference. :rolleyes:

Depending on the target design and where the bullet hits you may not get as much sound from a target as you might think. If we wore fast responding electronic ear muffs then it would be somewhat easier but that does not match our dress. Earplugs are typically used.

In our matches we have one score keeper who calls out the shooter order and records time and shots. We have three people that count the hits and watch for the shot order. Majority rules.

So we have the Range Officer with the timer, the score keeper, three shot counters, two people on the reloading and unloading tables, one or two people to pick up brass. That is eight or nine positions needed. Then of course you need the shooters and those at that have just shot or about to shoot at the loading table. Those that have shot have to switch off with some of the nine others doing the work on the stage.

If we get more than 15 shooters we can afford to have some people not pulling their weight. If we get above 20 shooters then we split into two posses in order to get the shoot done in a reasonable time. If we are at about 22 shooter then we have 11 per posse. This means we need everyone to pitch in again.

Typically when someone shoots cap and ball handguns they will have additional problems because of the gun design. They will take longer to load their guns and probably will not be able to do it at the regular loading tables that are busy places. How does someone shoot a stage with C&B when you are supposed to load your handguns on the clock? It does not happen often but it is written into stages every so often. What happens more often is additional shots with handguns unloaded and loaded on the clock.

I enjoy seeing someone shoot C&B. Those that have have typically had problems though. I would like to take mine out and shoot a stage or two with them but as primary guns I would not recommend it. But if you still plan on it then practice shooting as you would have to shoot in a match. Include your rifle and shotgun in the practice. If we had someone new show up that was not an experienced cowboy action shooter and he insisted on shooting C&B we would be concerned. Shooting on the clock in a match is not the same as shooting casually at your own pace.

The following picture is one of my favorite picture from a shoot in 2003. Cap an Ball with all chambers going off at once. Nice smoke.

Black-powder-revolver.jpg
 
:) Thanks for the info. No I haven't been to a shoot. That is why I am asking.

As far as reloading in competitionI believe the usual practice is to use a loaded cylinder and cap it on the clock. From what I gather so far the extra cylinder(s) is(are) either staged or carried in belt pouches.

As far as reloading I was thinking of getting a C&B reloader as I think they would be fairly quick.

I have used a fair number of firearms over the years but never in any sort of competition so that part would be new for me.

Again thank you for your insight.:wave:
 
What I have heard about brass framed C&B's is that after a while they will shoot loose,I think you would be better off using a steel framed gun .Another consideration would be the prevention of chain fires,you will also need to make sure you use lots of grease on your cylinders.A chain fire when shooting a stage can mess up your score and any missed targets would be hard to pick up with the reloading issues.Maybe another consideration would be BPC , all the smoke and boom without the reloading issues. I do own a C&B but don't use it for competing ,they are fun to shoot. anyway just my 2cents . I am a newbie at CAS ,what ever you decide I garentee you will have fun and meet some great people.........Tom
 
Tom,

Yeah I am starting to lean that way myself. BPC may be the best bet. Lots of smoke = lots of fun... LUV the smell of BP, but with fewer of the issues that could detract from the overall fun of the event.
 
Another consideration would be the prevention of chain fires,you will also need to make sure you use lots of grease on your cylinders

I tend to think that a chain fire happens more from poorly fitting caps on the nipples rather than from the front of the cylinder. Even without grease you should get a good seal if you are using the proper size ball (one that cuts a ring).

We have a few people that shoot black powder in cartridges (handguns, rifle, and shotgun). It makes for better pictures. :) We also have a couple of guys that shoot a powder that produces a lot of smoke to look like BP. The following are all BP though.

7374.jpg


7005.jpg


Dianne3.jpg


7077.jpg


For more Cowboy Action pictures go see Winnipeg Revolver and Pistol http://www.mts.net/~wrpa/
 
;) Well so much for cartridges. Fellow phoned me up with 2 B.P. percussions for sale. Apparently bought them some years ago but never got around to using them. Both seem nice and tight. $200 for the pair so I guess I am in!!!!:)
 
Colt 1851 or 1860 or 1861 or Remington 1858 Are FUN EH

From about 1968 until 1979 I did a fair amount of pistol practice with cap and ball American Civil War era Uberti and San Marco reproductions. I found them generally reliable and surprisingly accurate at the distances I shot them at ranging from five yards to 25 yards on fig 11/59 type targets as well as NRA Bullseye ones.

Indeed in the unlikely??event that centrefire handguns were BANNed by Politicians like Mayor Miller of Toronto and ONLY blackpowder handguns were available as they are in England at the present time, I would NOT feel "undergunned",

All those American Civil War Cavalry engagements were fought mainly with cap and ball revolvers. Yes they do have their eccentricities like the fact that percussion cap debris will render inoperable a Colt 1851 but you do learn to cope. It doesnt happen that often; I put probably two or three thousand shots through a brass framed 1851 Sherrif Model by Uberti and it didnt shoot loose.

The current crop of cap and ball revolvers are GOOD BARGAINS and GOOD SHOOTERS. I solved the loading problem by making up paper cartridges from Zig Zag cigarette paper, Roll the cigarette paper around a dowel the same diameter as the .36 cal ball; tie off one end with fine thread; grease ball and slide into the tube; tie off tube behind the ball; pour in required BLACK POWDER powder charge; tie off or twist second end of tube to contain powder,

Sure it took awhile. In the winter I used to go out with about a 100 or more of these preassembled "cartidges" and have a pistol session. I found that Remington percussion caps were the best for not spliting. With the right nipple size very frequently the caps would stay on the nipples or depart intact versus become debris. I greased each chamber front once loaded with water pump grease.

The paper cartridges worked well for me. Sometimes I would find that the .36 calibre ball carred the paper patch around it right to the target at 500 mph wher it was left atop the bullet hole or the Fig11/59 type target.

I learned to take the Colt 1851, 1860 1861 and Remington 1858 completely apart and clean their parts in soapy water. Thirty years or more later it would be easy to return to them. IF I did I would pick some of the new Pietta types in the short Sherrif's barrel5&1/2"brl length.

Cap and Ball is a good way to start pistol shooting in my opinion. I was inspired by Elmer Keiths book "Sixguns" to do so as it was an 1851 Colt that Elmer stated all his pistol shooting.

Three of these sixguns gives you eighteen shots. They are relatively rugged. In the American Civil War the Confederate or Union Cavalry carried three or four pistols each. As each was emptied it was dropped on the ground from horseback and the second or third or fourth pistol selected. The winners of the mounted engagement simply picked up their own Colt or Remington or Starr or Griswold pistols from the mounted engagement battlefield together with the ones of their beaten opponents which would be still lying there with their original owners or left by other owners running off in retreat after defeat.

It was said during the American Civil War perid that "one man (Union or Confederate) on a horse is worth four men on the ground". One of the 4 to 1 reasons was the mounted mans three or four revolvers.. one or two on the belt and two more on a saddle pommell twin set. Indeed that would be my own preferred location on horse back as you could carry the big Colt Dragoon 3rd Models. with essentially 44 mag effectiveness.

"Yes Virginia, the loading lever will drop down on the Colt Walker if not sufficiently tightened or fitted to stay up as those big 40 grains of blackpowder rounds go off!.

Thats why Colt later models had a loading level detent at the front of the barrel and/or even leaf sights added like the Colt Third Model Dragoon.

The "pocket rifle" concept also was explored for cap and ball revolvers.

For example the Colt 1860 was equipped with a shoulder stock for mounted action. Look at the frame on an 1860 and you will see the detents machined into the frame of the shoulder stock.

I have fired an 1860 Colt with the stock and it does aid accuracy somewhat. Am NOT a fan of it as the pistol is rather TOO close to your face and all the high speed debris on firing!

Think full face helmet with shooting glasses for testing eh! Nevertheless they were employed. Colt even made and sold percussion revolver type rifles.

The idea, subsequently copied in turn by 1917 Artillery Lugers or Inglis Brownings for China was to increase accuracy. The two close to your face aspect is also noticeable when firing an Inglis with its shoulder stock. BE SURE to consider how close the end of the slide is going to come to one or more of your eye balls or cheek bone when fired eh!

Wild Bill Hickok carried two Colt 1851s; the Upper and Lower Canada Militia had some 23,000 Colt 1851s which Prince Albert ordered for them from Col Colt himself at the London Exposition in 1854.

"No Virginia, the Colt 1851 or Colt 1861 or Remington 1858 are not Colt 1911s or P99s".

However they are very serviceable pistols that are well balanced and natural pointers. It is fun to "draw and fire" at belt level at distances of seven to ten yards.

In a way the Colt or Remington cap and ball pistols and their usage remind me of motorcycles and their types of riders.

There are riders who can maintain their own bikes or at least know exactly how they work so that if there is a glitch they can tell a mechanic essentially what the problem is.

Other motorcycle riders simply dont know very much if at all about either how their motorcycles work or how to do preventive maintenance. They are catered to by service mechanics whose dealers have sold them very EXPEN$$$IVE Motorcycles so why should they know how to disassemble their own motorcycle in even an elementary way or even replace a belt drive?

Colt 1851s are the same in a way. It is quite different to know how to completely disassemble the pistol you are target shooting with or to keep spare parts handy as Murphys Law Never Sleeps..

For example at a recent ISU competition I loaned one of my pistols to another competitor whose pistol would not feed the ammunition he/she had brought to the match. Oh yes..just ONE magazine for that particular competitors pistols which I estimated at some 50 years old..the one magazine that is!

To the same match I had brought two identical pistols with six proven by firing reliable magazines. For the rest of the match the competitor fired my "loaner" with my ammunition and I fired my back up identical piece. Everything worked 100%.

Thats probably why Colt Pistols frequently were sold in a double set COMPLETE with all loading equipment and even proprietary cartridges "pre rolled/assembled" for the Colt duo of Colt 1851s or 1860s or 1861s.

The Remington 1858 can have a seriers of cylinders to put in. Thirty years ago I had three for my Remington 1858. Check out Clint Eastwood in the final showdown in "Pale Rider".

Cold Mountain the recent movie could have been called "Colt Mountain". The final scene sums up what it must have been like to use these pistols off horseback. Also in Lonesome Dove there was a real reason why one of the central characters carried his Colt Walker or was it a Colt Third Model Dragoon?

Essentially the "creme du creme" cap and ball revolver in stainless steel is the Ruger Old Army. Ever wonder why Bill Ruger made the Old Army almost 30 years ago?

IF I could only have two black powder revolvers it would be two Colt 1861 Navy ones. Elias Root got the loading lever right and the lines are "beautiful".
 
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:) Makes sense to me. These things were around for quite a while and were quite effective.

Seems I like to do things the hard way. Do most of my hunting with a longbow or a .54 flinter. Camp in a wall tent. Drive a Ford.

Man, life is too tough:dancingbanana:
 
John in B.C. said:
I am interested in getting into CAS and would like to try cap and ball revolvers. I have shot blackpowder front-stuffers for many years so I am well aware of the fouling/cleaning issues.
I have been looking at the brass framed repro's. Anyone have any experience with them-pro or con?

:canadaFlag:

I've never shot one, but I did stay at a holiday Inn Express - LOL! I have one for sale in the EE. http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=155483

I have heard that you have to be careful - you have to use some coating covering the loaded chambers so that sparks don't set the rest of them off.
 
If I choose to shoot cap n ball, I shoot a pair of Colt Walker reproduction - tons of fun!! If I don't feel I will have time at the end of the day for cleaning I grab the cartridge guns (Ruger .45 Blackhawks).
 
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