Cas rifle?

C

centerfire

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Hey everyone I’m wanting to get into the cowboy action shooting. I am looking for a rifle
I’m considering a Henry Big Boy or a marlin 1894 in 45 colt.what does everyone
Recommend?
I would be shooting cast bullets of course.
Anything I should stay away from?
What is the difference between a marlin 1894 and 1894C and 1894CB?
Thanks for now!
Gerry
 
First get a 357 mag/38 spl.
1894C Marlin is a 357 carbine 18.5 inch barrel
Marlin 1894CB is a hex barrel 24 or 20 inch rifle, first run in the 90s, now Remington is making the next generation.
Marlin 1894 is 20 inch round barrel hunting gun
all the above can be found in 357, 44 mag, 44/40,
So after all that just hold your nose and buy a Winchester 357/38 made in Japan by Mirouke.
The Italy uberties cost the same but need 500 dollars plus a gunsmith to fix em.
VICIOUS
 
VICIOUS said:
First get a 357 mag/38 spl.
1894C Marlin is a 357 carbine 18.5 inch barrel
Marlin 1894CB is a hex barrel 24 or 20 inch rifle, first run in the 90s, now Remington is making the next generation.
Marlin 1894 is 20 inch round barrel hunting gun
all the above can be found in 357, 44 mag, 44/40,
So after all that just hold your nose and buy a Winchester 357/38 made in Japan by Mirouke.
The Italy uberties cost the same but need 500 dollars plus a gunsmith to fix em.
VICIOUS
Click to expand...

Same as Vicious ,,,,,,,,,,, IF
 
First: Howdy! And Welcome! To the great sport of Cowboy Action. Lots of fun. Plenty of competition. Plus, at least in my opinion....some of the finest, friendliest and most generous folks to be found in any shooting sport. I see you're from Saskatchewan. I consider myself privileged to know and shoot with some of the cowboys/cowgirls, from this great Province. If you happen to be from the Saskatoon area....the CAS program at SMLC(Saskatoon Muzzle Loading Club) is in my opinion, one of the best. Great bunch of folks. Plus some top notch shooters.

Though some shooters do use the Henry rifle...they aren't best suited to cowboy action. Mostly due to the lack of a side loading gate. Henry has been slowly adopting new rifles with this feature, though. If your goal is to compete at a serious level, either the Uberti 1873, or Miroku-Winchester 1873 rifles, make good choices. The Uberti being preferred, as there are more aftermarket competition parts available for these rifles, than Winchester. The Winchester rifles being newer on the scene...comp parts aren't as readily available...yet....as Uberti. I expect to see this improve over the next while, as more of the rifles enter the game.
The Miroku-Winchester rifles are of excellent quality, though. Certainly capable of competing, right out of the box. Both brands are pricey, though....and will run well over $1000 new. But well worth the price. As Vicious already mentioned, these rifles will need some tuning, to get them to run at the speed required to compete with the best. My advice: If one of these suits your budget...go with Uberti.

Next, would be a Model 92. Winchester builds a good one. Still a bit pricey, though. Rossi Model '92 ...if you can find one...also make good entry-level rifles. The relatively inexpensive Rossi may be a bit rough around the edges, but is a tough and reliable little rifle. If you can find one in your preferred calibre...it will suit you well.

Marlin lever rifles have been around since the very beginnings of the sport. And continue in their popularity. Either the Marlin 1894C or CB will work just fine One caveat: Regardless of calibre choice...you will need a rifle capable of holding at least 10 rounds. So magazine length and capacity(Model C..18.5". CB...20") will be the ultimate factor in your choice. The Marlin rifles will also need some judicious polishing and tuning of the internals to get them running at speed, too. But will certainly run with the big dogs, after a bit of slicking up. Note: Though steadily improving...the new Remington-made Marlin rifles have suffered from spotty quality control. So be sure to carefully examine your choice, before purchase.

Though calibre choice is up to you...and plenty of shooters use and enjoy the .45 Colt.....including some wearing Champion buckles...I do agree with Vicious, that a rifle chambered in .357/.38 makes more sense in this game, overall. In fact, the .38 Special is currently the most popular calibre in use. Why?
From a strictly dollars and cents perspective.....38 Special much cheaper to reload. Cowboy action is very much a reloaders game. So this can make a huge difference in the thickness of your wallet, over the course of a year. Also: in a sport where speed and precision is the goal, most competitors shoot relatively mild, low velocity target rounds. To reduce recoil and recovery time, between shots. Where hundredths of a second.... can mean the difference between top spot and also-ran. I have seen this happen, on more than one occasion. Another reason why the 38 Special, is so popular.

But....if you prefer to be more 'period correct'. Plus, like the idea of owning and shooting the big Colt. Go right ahead. Ultimately, the choice is yours, alone. Lots of folks use and enjoy the .45. It is next to the .38 Special, in popularity. The .45 Colt is also a highly versatile cartridge. Especially where Wild Bunch( A hugely popular branch of CAS) competition may eventually become part of your future. There, cartridges over .40 calibre are mandated. So the .45 is also worth consideration.

Likely the best advice I can offer: Attend a few matches first....before making any gear choices. Talk to the competitors. See what they use and prefer. And why. Ask plenty of questions. Cowboy action shooters are exceptionally generous with their time and advice. If possible, handle and even shoot some of the firearms. You'll likely get plenty of folks offering you the opportunity to try theirs out. Shoot a Stage or two, if possible.

Hopefully, some of this advice is useful. Feel free to PM me, if you'd like more info.

Al
 
While I somewhat agree with Vicious statement I will make a few of my own.

on the Henry USA rifles, I have only seen 3 or 4 shooters use them as a main match rifle and only one of those( a young fellow from Manitoba, sorry I have forgotten you "handle") was use as proficiently as any of the other more popular choices, don't know if it was an operator issue or a gun issue...just know that they weren't being used as fast as 73's or Marlins.

I do agree with Vicious on the Japchester 73's, I have unboxed 1/2 a dozen or so of them for local shooters and every one of them were basically ready to be used as main match rifles right out of the box for most shooters...the folks that want to compete for the pink Caddys will still want a short stroked 73. I here that short stroke kit is now available for Miroku's but have never been asked to install one.

I don't agree with his statement that a Uberti will require $500 worth of professional gunsmithing to be main match worthy. Quite simply, $50 worth of springs and a screw driver and a 1/2 hour on anybody with half a modicum of mechanical intuition kitchen table will make a Uberti every bit as functional as a Miroku. Even a quality short stroke kit can be had for under $200 and self-installed quite easily with the same screw driver & a new sharp bastard file to set the timing of the carrier lifter bar...takes about 2 hrs....Now you will have the "Cadillac winner " rifle.

For the Marlins (by the way, my wife's 1894 CB has an "octagon" barrel, not hex LOL), right out of the box most of them will be completely capable main match rifles for the average "shooting for the fun of the sport" but can also be made to be quite competitive with the best 73's out there with an experienced, practiced, operator. First, a smooting out of any cutter marks on any internal moving pieces should be done and after that 4 spring adjustments (main spring hammer resistance, trigger lock, lever plunger and shorten the mag spring so the wife wont break her finger nails while loading),again all easily done at home. The last thing to make a Marlin run effortlessly and absolutely continuously without "double clutching" is to have ammo OAL fit what your rifle wants ( all of the .38 sp/.357 mag rifles I have ever worked on and tested afterwards, I use .38 sp ammo withan OAL of 1.515" and haven't found one yet that wont eat them like candy).

Enjoy the sport

Oh ya...if you plan on hunting as well with the rifle and shooting high pressure magnum ammo in it, stick to the Marlin or Hentry, USA ...I know the manufacturers chamber the modern 73 toggle action rifles for magnum cartridges and make claims that these rounds wont hurt them, I have collected a box of bent or broke toggles & pins in my shop that prove otherwise sometimes...your rifle might hold up but then it just as easily might not and parts are expensive.
 
Plenty of good advice as always, from fingers284. Most Uberti and Miroku-Winchester rifles can be 'tuned' to run reasonably fast, simply by reducing the tension on the main spring. Easiest method: Place a shim between spring and frame. Won't take more than a few minutes to install. Shim material varies. The oldtimers often used leather. Though I prefer brass...I've found that a piece cut from a plastic credit card, works pretty well, too. It is surprising how often an easy 'fix' like this, can make a rifle feel and run a lot smoother and easier to operate. Dirt cheap, too.

To my knowledge, Pioneer Gun Works, has suspended producing anymore of their short-stroke kits, for the Miroku-Winchester rifles. Though these may be available in future. Once further R & D is finished. In the meantime, the Winchesters can be 'tuned' to run a bit slicker, simply by shimming the main spring. Plus: reducing the tension on the lever safety spring. This operation requires a delicate touch, though. As the lever safety spring/trigger spring are of one piece design: A carefully formed single wire spring Unlike original Winchester rifles, or their Uberti clones. So care needs to be taken in bending it.

Fingers....I fully agree with your statement about Marlin '94's in capable hands. I regularly compete with two cowpokes...one of them with numerous Champion buckles to his credit... who run '94 Marlins as their main match rifles. These fellas are FAST! They have swapped out springs and generally polished up the innards of their rifles, that's about it. Most of their speed really comes from the skill and dedication of the man behind the rifle's buttplate. A smooth-running rifle helps. But, skill and plenty of practice are important, too.

Al
 
Correction: For the purists among us. I meant to say: "Place a shim between spring and lower tang." Nomenclature can be important, at times.

Al
 
Some clarification is in order, for those who might wish to shim their rifle's main spring:

It will still be important to fine tune spring tension, by re-adjusting the tension screw(Sometimes also referred to as strain screw). Its the smaller of the two screws on the bottom of the lower tang. This too, needs to be adjusted to maintain upward pressure on the arched main spring. Enough that, the spring drives the hammer with sufficient force to reliably set off cartridge primers. Otherwise, misfires become common.
I saw just this thing happen at a major match, last summer. The shooter had 2-3 misfires in his first 10- shot rifle string. A quick inspection revealed that the rifle's tension screw (Uberti 1873) had backed out, for some unknown reason. The screw head stood proud of the lower tang. Fortunately, another shooter with a handy screwdriver cured the problem in short order, with a few inward turns on the screw. The moral of this story: Should you start getting a lot of misfires...start troubleshooting here, first. By the way, always back off the tension screw first, before backing off the mainspring screw. Secure and adjust, in reverse order.
I have known a few folks who will also back the mainspring screw out half a turn or so, too. Some even recommend this method. Personally, I avoid doing that. Since that screw is there to retain one end of the main spring in place. Backing it off too far, could cause the screw threads to strip under spring pressure....and the spring pops free. Then, the rifle is out of action until fixed. So, I prefer to keep that one firmly secured. While making any necessary adjustments, with the tension screw.

Though adjusting and maintaining good spring pressure is sometimes a delicate dance, it really isn't all that complicated. Once you understand how each component interacts with the others. Hope this info helps.

Al
 
I started shooting CAS about 3 years ago. I began with a borrowed 1897 Winchester Commemorative in 44-40. My next rifle was a Cimarron '66 Yellow Boy in 38 Spl. Followed by a Miroku 1873 in 38/357. I've got a short stroke kit and light lifter in the 66, but I run the '73 mostly. The Miroku is stock, cleaned and oiled was all it needed, except I tightened the mainspring a touch. If the mainspring is too loose the rifle flings the empties too aggressively. Too tight and just pop out.

Most miss fires come from over running the rifle. Operating the lever before the hammer has struck the primer.

Henry has a heck of a warranty, I think you'd be OK with one. They have different models of Big Boys, and they all load through the tube. This may be an issue at the loading table. Loading is a bit easier with a side gate, IMHO. A fellow shooter has one in 45LC, and he seldom uses it, says he should have got it in 38/357. Unless you want to shoot Wild Bunch as well, it's a pretty popular choice of calibers.

A Marlin 1894 in 38/357 works fine, but expect that you may have to completely take it down and clean out the metal filings and grit. I had an 1894 Marlin in 44 mag, it didn't pass load development, so I sold it. I'm not a fan of their extremely slow twist rate and shallow groove rifling. Marlin "Ballard" looking rifling is just Mircrogroove with 1/2 as many grooves, certainly not deep cut Ballard.

Marlins will run for a long time before they wear out and start doing funky stuff. The lifter and magazine cutoff timing gets a bit wonky. Don't let that scare you off if you like the rifle, pretty much any of the levers will end up at the Dr at some point. The '92 is probably the only one that stands up to the punishment, but they are not as fast as a '66 or '73. Unless you can do basic gunsmithing, stay away from a Rossi '92.

What caliber are your hip guns? Do you want to run just one ammo? Do you handload? Hip guns can eat any sort of ammo, as a rule. Lever rifles can have fussy appetites. Even though I have 357 hip guns and 38/357 rifles, I still have different ammo, it's a long story, bottom line I'm a bit anal when it comes to accuracy and performance. Shooting CAS doesn't need that good an ammo.

O6isF6s.jpg


My '66. '73 and my sons '92, a Rossi in 44 mag.

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The Marlin I did not like. Shame, I spent several hours cutting the checkering. It comes lazer burnt, not nice.

cV5XwE7.jpg


It does cut into some decent checkering, you can't remove all the charcoal, but most of it is gone.

Take care and if you can't decide, go to a meet and if where you shoot is like our matches, you can always borrow a gun or 2. I borrowed a shotgun and a rifle from a relative for my first meet.

Which shotgun are you planning to use? I got hooked on the '97, a SXS is a good choice, but again, just not as fast.

t0U7o70.jpg


Nitro. (AKA Big Boston, for CAS)
 
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Your local gunshop should be able to get whatever you need. In the meantime, check out some of this site's sponsors. For example: I see that Wanstalls lists a a couple of new Marlin 1894CB rifles on their page. Chambered for .357 and 44 Mag. But, if .45 Colt is your goal, it shouldn't be hard to get one in. Though in Ontario, Ellwood Epps is another good source. I see a couple of Marlin 1894's in .45 Colt, on their site. Epps is also a good source for Miroku-Winchester and Uberti rifles, too. I see several new Uberti 1873 rifles currently listed, in .357. I have personally ordered several rifles from Epps in the past, with no problems. Epps will ship just about anywhere. There are likely a few more I haven't found yet. But this should give you some info. Hope this helps.

Al
 
Follow up: As Fingers284 already mentioned in a previous post, a lot of 'tuning' of your cowboy guns, can be done at home, by anyone with basic gun knowledge. Plus common sense. Spring kits, comp parts, etc., are readily available. Here in Canada: Rusty Wood Trading, is an excellent source. In the US: Brownells, VTI Gun Parts and Numrich(Gun Parts Corp), are also good sources. Shipping to Canada is no problem. With the exception of some ITAR parts through Brownells. Though this may change, due to recent proposals to change ITAR rules. In the meantime, the site has all the information needed to sort out what parts are allowed, or not. VTI and Numrich, no problems at all. Taylor's, is another good source for parts.

There is also a wealth of information available on youtube, when it comes to slicking up your cowboy guns.

If you'd like your work done by a professional gunsmith, Rusty Wood(aka: Peter), is, at least in my opinion....the top choice, here in Canada. Peter is a serious Cowboy Action competitor and knows what these guns need to make them perform at championship level. Shipping will be no problem.

Hope this extra info helps.

Al
 
Centerfire: You may already have this. But if not, Go to the SAWWS (Saskatchewan Association of Wild West Shooters), and check out: 'Range Locations and Contacts' area of the site, for cowboy action-oriented clubs in your area. Lots of useful info.

Al
 
Centerfire, my wife bought her Miroko Winchester M73 at the Canadian Tire in Speedy Creek. Don't buy the Henry, you will regret it when you up grade, and if you get into this sport, you will upgrade. Start with either a Uberti M73 or a Miroku M73 in .45 Colt and you will never have to upgrade and you will have a rifle that you can use in BOTH Cowboy Action & Wild Bunch Matches. Another plug for Rusty Woods, he is a magician with the M73!
 
Agree with Garand, 100%. When you compare current prices of Uberti or Miroku-Winchester 1873 rifles to say: Marlin 1894CB, there is really only a couple of hundred dollars difference between one and the other. A Miroku-Winchester 1892 rifle, will be priced similarly, to Marlin.
Still, an 1873 is a good choice overall. As long as your budget agrees! As a matter of interest: I own and compete with 1873 rifles made by both Uberti and Miroku-Winchester. In my view they are equal, in overall build quality and reliability. Given a choice between the two, I prefer Uberti. Onlybecause of its broader availability of aftermarket comp parts. Initially, I chose .357/38...mostly because I'd been shooting revolvers chambered in both calibres, for around 40 years. So the reloading infrastructure was already in place. But, I also shoot .45 Colt and really like it, too. You really can't go wrong with the big Colt round. Very versatile.
Not likely this makes your choices any easier! But may be helpful.

Al
 
Correction: Substitute "I'd been shooting revolvers chambered for both 'cartridges'... Need to be more PC, in my use of terms. 'Oldtimers' strikes again. Still, I think you get my drift.

Al
 
Garand: Currently, I am living in rural SW Ontario(The solid Tory blue part!). We called Saskatoon home, for some time. Until being transferred here. I still have plenty of family and friends though, scattered across both Saskatchewan and Alberta. Also some family connections in Manitoba(Souris area). My wife's childhood girlfriend lives in Claresholm, AB. She'd eventually like to move there, to be closer. Now that we're both retired, that possibility gets better all the time. We have family here in Ontario, too. Farmers and good ol' country rednecks, mostly. But none....thankfully....that live anywhere near Toronto!
I am pretty familiar with some of the good folks that run the SAWWS Saskatoon (at SMLC) cowboy action events, every year. A couple of whom I've known, for well over twenty years. I credit them with getting me hooked on Cowboy Action. Always enjoy shooting there....whenever possible. A good time.

Alex
 
Alex, if you do move to Clarseholm, there as an active cowboy group very close by at a ranch outside of Granum. I've never been there but have a lot of friends who attend every year and say it is a nice "old cowboy ranch setting" . Alberta Annie is the trail boss of the place. I think they run 2 ,"open" 2-day shoots a year and local monthly "practice shoots"

As well there is the Ab. Frontier Shootist group a couple hrs north at Rocky Mtn. House. We run montly 2-day'ers throughout the summer, Including the 4 day Canadian Cowboy Shooting Championships every Aug long weekend ( 20 yr aniv last yr.). Camping space for about 50 tin tent units in a beautiful Ab. foothills setting ( Just picture the meadow where the "horse charge" scene is in True Grit).
 
Fingers284: Thank you for the info. I am very casually acquainted with Alberta Annie and Southwest Trapper. Having bumped into them on several occasions, at the July/August matches at SMLC, just outside Saskatoon. Nice folks. Co-incidentally, we have a group of shooters from this area I see regularly, that often spend time with them down in Arizona, every year. Some, at the Bordertown match near Tombstone. Others, at Winter Range. Small world, isn't it?
I knew they often hosted shoots at their ranch. Have not been there either. But may, if possible. My wife's current health issues have put a bit of a damper on our plans to move back 'home'. Otherwise, we'd be there right now. The girls are itching to get their heads together. Still planning the move though, when and if possible. Sooner, rather than later.
Funny you should mention the Alberta Frontier Shootists. Was looking at the site, only a few evenings ago. Dang small world! I see some familiar names on your "2019 Fall Roundup Top Ten". Even been posse'd up with a couple of them on occasion, at Saskatoon. I'd be putting even money on my truck being pointed up that way, too.

Alex
 
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