How can you tell if a case is unsuitable to load anymore? If the case looks fine, is there away to tell before the case fails? Also what is the worst thing that could happen if it splits above the web. I know I could use a paper clip to cheak for cracks inside the case above the web. I have only full length sized and had 6 reloads for my custom .300 win mag and casings look to be in good shape, I have had no issues but I don't want to push it. And does neck sizing vs full length improve case life a little or a lot? I know neck sizing improves accuracy.
Case life.
- Thread starter garradh
- Start date
Case life is going to depend both on how you size it and how you load it.
If you full length size brass that is fired in a loose chamber, it gets worked more.
If you constantly load right to the nuts, it's gonna eat your brass too. Or not.
Keep it reasonable and you can have brass that lasts and lasts. Or not.
But the real answer, and the only one I, or anyone that's not feeding you a line of excrement, can actually stand behind as fact, is, it varies.
I've seen brass that was fired in a none-too-tight .303, that was showing case head separation signs on first firing.
So. It varies. Loads, chamberings, chamber dimensions, the way you hold your lips while reloading, whether the brass is hard or soft, whether the original maker annealed it often enough during manufacture, whether you annealed the necks or didn't, and probably a half dozen other things real or imagined, all affect case life.
I tend to keep an eye out for samples of screwups and failing brass when I am at the range. Someone here loads their 7RMag really hot, to judge from the number of separated cases I see. The line around the base that forms as teh case stretches is pretty easy to see once you've seen one.
Cheers
Trev
If you full length size brass that is fired in a loose chamber, it gets worked more.
If you constantly load right to the nuts, it's gonna eat your brass too. Or not.
Keep it reasonable and you can have brass that lasts and lasts. Or not.
But the real answer, and the only one I, or anyone that's not feeding you a line of excrement, can actually stand behind as fact, is, it varies.
I've seen brass that was fired in a none-too-tight .303, that was showing case head separation signs on first firing.
So. It varies. Loads, chamberings, chamber dimensions, the way you hold your lips while reloading, whether the brass is hard or soft, whether the original maker annealed it often enough during manufacture, whether you annealed the necks or didn't, and probably a half dozen other things real or imagined, all affect case life.
I tend to keep an eye out for samples of screwups and failing brass when I am at the range. Someone here loads their 7RMag really hot, to judge from the number of separated cases I see. The line around the base that forms as teh case stretches is pretty easy to see once you've seen one.
Cheers
Trev
Pathfinder
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Northeast Ontario
It will, espacially if the chamber is on the long side. Cases that are neck sized only usually end up getting tossed after cracks develop in the neck which is the way it should be. You can further lenghten the life of those cases by annealing.
Another part of case life is the primer pockets.....if they loosen up quickly you might be loading a little hot. I find FC cases tend to loosen quicker then others but that's just me.
A recent thread involved a Lee Loader having been used to reload .222 Rem; the OP said they'd probably been reloaded 20 to 30 times. http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=603680
It's hard to predict, but, all other things being equal:
It's not something to lose sleep over, provided you spend a little time examining your cases and use a little common sense.
Keep using that paper clip. Oh, and the cleaner and shinier the brass, the easier it is to detect cracks, flaws, etc.
It's hard to predict, but, all other things being equal:
- good brass will last longer than so-so brass
- annealing will prolong case life
- hot loads will shorten case life
- loose or over-long chambers will shorten case life, ditto tight dies. In each case, the case is being worked more every reload, making the brass harder and harder.
- neck resizing works only the softest part of the case and cases only neck resized will last much longer than ones full-length resized every time.
- cases exposed to harmful chemicals (especially mercury) will have a shorter case life.
It's not something to lose sleep over, provided you spend a little time examining your cases and use a little common sense.
Keep using that paper clip. Oh, and the cleaner and shinier the brass, the easier it is to detect cracks, flaws, etc.
If there's nothing visibly wrong with the case, it will last for at least one more firing.
-Cracked necks
-Incipient head separation. This may be visible as a thin shiny ring on the outside (not to be mistaken for the mark left by resizing), or you may have to use a dental pick or paperclip to feel a notch on the inside.
-Loose primer pockets
Most of the time, a split case fails such that the base still provides gas sealing and leaves the forward portion in the chamber. Often, it will just fall out, but sometimes you need to use a broken case extractor or bore brush to remove it. There is a possibility of gas being blown back from the chamber from a case head separation, so you do want to make a point of culling any cases showing signs of incipient separation.
-Cracked necks
-Incipient head separation. This may be visible as a thin shiny ring on the outside (not to be mistaken for the mark left by resizing), or you may have to use a dental pick or paperclip to feel a notch on the inside.
-Loose primer pockets
Most of the time, a split case fails such that the base still provides gas sealing and leaves the forward portion in the chamber. Often, it will just fall out, but sometimes you need to use a broken case extractor or bore brush to remove it. There is a possibility of gas being blown back from the chamber from a case head separation, so you do want to make a point of culling any cases showing signs of incipient separation.
Bruiseleee
CGN Regular
- Location
- Too paranoid to say
How loose is a loose primer pocket? I've fired some that were easy to insert the primer but the primer still stayed in the pocket. Does loose mean the primer fill fall out if the the primed case is jiggled around?
How loose is a loose primer pocket? I've fired some that were easy to insert the primer but the primer still stayed in the pocket. Does loose mean the primer fill fall out if the the primed case is jiggled around?
Are far as primer pockets go if it stays in it's ok, there are varying degrees of "loose" primer pockets. Though you may want to back off your loads a bit as pressure is the biggest factor in producing them.
rnbra-shooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Brunswick
Any noticeable loosening is a result of the brass being permanently deformed by the pressure of firing (and is one of the warning signs that you are loading too hot and eating into safety margins).
Primers can seat with little or even almost no perceptible resistance, and yet still not fall out. Even though it is usually safe to fire ammo like this, this sort of brass is ruined brass.
One thing to look out for with ammo with fairly loose primers. There can be a small amount of leakage of gas around the primer when the round is fired - not enough to make any powder marks on the case head, but enough to make some microscopic pits in the bolt face each time a round is fired. In a rifle with a few thousand rounds through it it is pretty common to see a slightly-larger-than-a-primer pitted ring in the bolt face around the firing pin hole. So even if you're not in danger of hurting yourself by firing ammo with loose-ish primers, you might want to limit the amount of erosion your bolt face gets.
In more advanced cases of case damage, primer pockets can be loose enough so that the primer will back out or even fall out if the case is lightly tapped. In even more extreme cases the primer can fall out by gravity.
Thanks all for the info. With closer inspection I found small hair line cracks above the web. I bought new brass, and redding neck sizing die, if I was to anneal, how often do you do it? And do you anneal brand new brass? The brass I'm using is Winchester. Thanks again for the replies!
No need to anneal new brass if it's from a good name in this continent.
As to how often, that depends a lot on your situation. If you're just loading pussycat loads, you probably never will have to. If it's top-end, the brass is working more and will probably need it frequently. Some references say as often as every five loads.
Note that annealing will not fix the structure of the grain near the base. One long-standing method involves heating the neck with a torch while the cases are standing in a tray of water.
As to the ring you are describing, to the best of my knowledge, that's related to excessive headspacing, although one reference lists repeatedly resizing the case too short as a possible cause. You may want to measure your sized brass and compare it with SAAMI specs.
As to how often, that depends a lot on your situation. If you're just loading pussycat loads, you probably never will have to. If it's top-end, the brass is working more and will probably need it frequently. Some references say as often as every five loads.
Note that annealing will not fix the structure of the grain near the base. One long-standing method involves heating the neck with a torch while the cases are standing in a tray of water.
As to the ring you are describing, to the best of my knowledge, that's related to excessive headspacing, although one reference lists repeatedly resizing the case too short as a possible cause. You may want to measure your sized brass and compare it with SAAMI specs.
I didn't read them all, but I have read enough to know I have to reply.
Going straight to the OPs post.
The case is unsuitable to load when the primer goes in too easily. What is too easy? Jack O'Connor once wrote that when you could push the primer in with your thumb, it went in too easy. With all due respect to O'Connor, I think that is much too easy. I go by the feel of the power it takes to seat the primer. If it is about half of what it usually takes, I throw away the case.
What is the worst catastoghic happening of using a case too often?
Nothing catastrophic, but something you don't want to happen is for the primer to blow out. Big noise, fireball around the action, maybe extractor blown off.
Someone said if the primer pockets are increasing in size, you may be loading a bit hot!
The understatement of the day. If the primer loosens with only one or two shots, you are dangerously over loading. They tell us that proof loads won't loosen the primer with only a shot or two.
We are often told on here that loading heavy shortens case life. I think this is only true if the loads are so heavy that the primers loosen. For the vast majority of rifles, the listed maximum loads in reloading manuals, will never loosen primers and my opinion is these loads will not shorten case life any more than would cases loaded to only the starting loads in the books.
I am not known as one who loads light. I load to what my rifle will handle safely and this is often heavier than shown in loading books. Still, I get very long life from my cases and unless something unusual happens, my primers never loosen. I still have old CIL and Norma cases around, which in the past have been loaded countless times. I recently worked on them and every single one I tried had a tight primer pocket. Looking at the case they looked like once shot cases!
While head seperation, just above the web, sounds pretty dire, the shooter never knows it happens until the bolt is opened and only a short piece of case comes out! I have shot on the range where the fellow next to me with a 30-06 had almost every case come out, barely holding together at this spot. Some cases would be open three quarters of the way around them, but nothing, whatsoever, was noticed in shooting them. Finally, one broke off completely and he had to quit shooting because he didn't have a broken case extractor with him.
Target shooters often carried a broken case extractor with them at shooting matches. Hunters often had one with them on long hunting trips, also.
So, how does a case wear out and become unuseable?
They get lengthwise cracks in the necks. This is the normal way for a case to end its useful life span. This presents no danger to the shooter. For non important loading, I have often loaded a case with a slight crack, or line, which I know will open up on shooting the next round.
Going straight to the OPs post.
The case is unsuitable to load when the primer goes in too easily. What is too easy? Jack O'Connor once wrote that when you could push the primer in with your thumb, it went in too easy. With all due respect to O'Connor, I think that is much too easy. I go by the feel of the power it takes to seat the primer. If it is about half of what it usually takes, I throw away the case.
What is the worst catastoghic happening of using a case too often?
Nothing catastrophic, but something you don't want to happen is for the primer to blow out. Big noise, fireball around the action, maybe extractor blown off.
Someone said if the primer pockets are increasing in size, you may be loading a bit hot!
The understatement of the day. If the primer loosens with only one or two shots, you are dangerously over loading. They tell us that proof loads won't loosen the primer with only a shot or two.
We are often told on here that loading heavy shortens case life. I think this is only true if the loads are so heavy that the primers loosen. For the vast majority of rifles, the listed maximum loads in reloading manuals, will never loosen primers and my opinion is these loads will not shorten case life any more than would cases loaded to only the starting loads in the books.
I am not known as one who loads light. I load to what my rifle will handle safely and this is often heavier than shown in loading books. Still, I get very long life from my cases and unless something unusual happens, my primers never loosen. I still have old CIL and Norma cases around, which in the past have been loaded countless times. I recently worked on them and every single one I tried had a tight primer pocket. Looking at the case they looked like once shot cases!
While head seperation, just above the web, sounds pretty dire, the shooter never knows it happens until the bolt is opened and only a short piece of case comes out! I have shot on the range where the fellow next to me with a 30-06 had almost every case come out, barely holding together at this spot. Some cases would be open three quarters of the way around them, but nothing, whatsoever, was noticed in shooting them. Finally, one broke off completely and he had to quit shooting because he didn't have a broken case extractor with him.
Target shooters often carried a broken case extractor with them at shooting matches. Hunters often had one with them on long hunting trips, also.
So, how does a case wear out and become unuseable?
They get lengthwise cracks in the necks. This is the normal way for a case to end its useful life span. This presents no danger to the shooter. For non important loading, I have often loaded a case with a slight crack, or line, which I know will open up on shooting the next round.
Jeeshz, now you got me thinking again.
What is a case extractor and how does it work.
Now you gave me one more thing to think about.
This thinking is good eye think.
Got a photo of one of these rifle case extractors there pilot?
What is a case extractor and how does it work.
Now you gave me one more thing to think about.
This thinking is good eye think.
Got a photo of one of these rifle case extractors there pilot?
I have one of those. Doesn't work too well when the case head came off the
body. I called RCBS in regards to my predictament and told me in all likelyhood
I would have to replace the die body. So the dare was on. I did manage to get
the brass out of the case. Wore a patch on my scalp scratch'in it though.
Thanks for the suggestions.
Looky.
body. I called RCBS in regards to my predictament and told me in all likelyhood
I would have to replace the die body. So the dare was on. I did manage to get
the brass out of the case. Wore a patch on my scalp scratch'in it though.
Thanks for the suggestions.
Looky.
Don't know if I dare tell......
If you gubber up your die, don't be making any voodoo dolls that lookylike me and
go poking needles into it, hookay?
I studied it long and hard. I found a round punch that fit the top end of the die and
lightly tap tap but no avail.
Tried some different easy outs and gently tried to turn the case in the die. No go.
So cordless drill and a drill bit that would just slip inside the case. Drilled until it bottomed. Punch on top and tried it again. No go. Bigger drill bit from the bottom side
and in until it stopped. Punch again. No go. Study somemore. I figured if I can drill from the bottom up and drill into the case neck and have the bottom case separate from the top neck part, less friction in the whole case........BUT!!!!!
Do not go through the brass as you can damage the die neck taper.
I drilled a tiny bit and used the easy out and repeated until the case body came away from the neck portion. Getting the neck brass out was easy.
I forgot to mention at the beginning you need to remove the decapping pin/ball rod.
I just removed the lock nut and threaded it through and out the bottom side.
Patience is a virtue here. Get rammy and you will be buying yourself a new die.
Good luck.
Looky.
If you gubber up your die, don't be making any voodoo dolls that lookylike me and
go poking needles into it, hookay?
I studied it long and hard. I found a round punch that fit the top end of the die and
lightly tap tap but no avail.
Tried some different easy outs and gently tried to turn the case in the die. No go.
So cordless drill and a drill bit that would just slip inside the case. Drilled until it bottomed. Punch on top and tried it again. No go. Bigger drill bit from the bottom side
and in until it stopped. Punch again. No go. Study somemore. I figured if I can drill from the bottom up and drill into the case neck and have the bottom case separate from the top neck part, less friction in the whole case........BUT!!!!!
Do not go through the brass as you can damage the die neck taper.
I drilled a tiny bit and used the easy out and repeated until the case body came away from the neck portion. Getting the neck brass out was easy.
I forgot to mention at the beginning you need to remove the decapping pin/ball rod.
I just removed the lock nut and threaded it through and out the bottom side.
Patience is a virtue here. Get rammy and you will be buying yourself a new die.
Good luck.
Looky.
