Cast bullet loads?

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NiceRice858

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Does anyone know where I can find some cast bullet loads? I purchased some 205g .313 gas check bullets for my Enfield but I can't find any loading data anywhere except for two cryptic loads:

http://members.nuvox.net/~on.melchar/303brit/303-5744-205.html

http://www.reloadersnest.com/detail.asp?CaliberID=54&BulletWeight=200&LoadID=11002

I think I'm going to try a 20.00g starting load of H335 but I just don't know if this is safe. The LEE manual says to be careful when reducing loads for slow burning powders, H335 seems pretty fast. It states that you should not reduce a charge more than 50% and no more 20% for the slowest burning powder. According to the LEE chart, this means I could reduce the H335 load up to 33% more than 20%, so 50% would be safe. H335 seems similar in speed to the HERC 2400 mystery load, so my comfort level around the 25 grain mark is pretty high.

I'm also thinking that if I start really low, like 20 grains of H335 or Varget and increase loads up by 1 grain all the way to 30, I can inspect the brass for signs of increased pressure. I'll look at the primers to see if they're being flattened, case head separation will obviously occur, etc. The problem is that I just don't know how much is too much or where to stop. Will I blow up the gun before the primer flattens? Not sure!

What's cool about these 205g bullets is that the point where they engage the rifling is the exact maximum COAL that will fit in my magazine so I'm pretty happy about that.

The reason for typing all this out isn't so that I can experiment and report back (Which I plan on doing anyway), it's so you guys can peer review what I'm attempting in case I'm horribly mistaken and proceed to practice bad science.
 
For loading light loads in bottle neck cases, the exact calibre, or cartridge, is not that important.
The bible of cast bullet loading, Lyman's Handbook of Cast Bullets, lists the 303 British along with three other cartridges, and gives the same loading for all four!
The other three are, 7.62 Russian, 303 Savage and 7.7 Jap.
For some reason they list the 30-40 Krag, which is nearly identical to the 303 British, seperately.
Under this grouping they show 7 different powders and two loadings for each, for the 205 grain bullet.
 
I only have the LEE manual, so I checked all four of those calibers. None of them had anything close except for the 303 Savage. It says here on page 417:

190 GRAIN LEAD BULLET:
ACCUR 2700 26.7g 1662fps
ACCUR 2520 23.00g 1661fps
A-XMR-2015 20.2g 1647fps
ACCUR 2460 21.9g 1642fps
ACCUR 2230 21.1g 1616fps
ACC XMP5744 18.00g 1614fps

Now, which of these powders are similar to H335 and Varget? Accur2230 is practically the same as Varget and a bit quicker than H335. It then states to NEVER EXCEED 23.4g for 31620CUP. In fact, none of these loads exceed 35,000CUP, and I've noticed the 303 British never exceeds 46500CUP in the LEE manual. I think I'll start a load at 25 grains, like Mark said, and watch for pressure signs in the brass all the way up to 30 grains of Varget.
 
NiceRice858 said:
Mark, looks like we bought the same bullets from the same person. I'll let you know how the progress goes. What powders do you normally use? I have H380, Varget, and H335.
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Read the articles. I bought some Red Dot for my experiments, based on the articles. I just want a nice shooting, light load to enjoy at the range for cheap, so anything around 1500fps will work fine for me. I plan to also try it out in my Yugo M-48 Mauser in 8x57. If it works out well, I will use the Mauser and the light load for the service rifle matches at the Sheppard range in SE Calgary.

Mark
 
I just read through it, very interesting:

"4. 180-200 grain gas-checked "deer/600 yard target", 1750-1850 f.p.s., 26 grains of RL-7 or equivalent."

Reloader 7 is very similar in burn rate to Varget and H335, so this reinforces what I believe. 24-29 grains will probably be safe. That stuff about Red Dot was interesting, I've only ever thought that using fast burning pistol powder in rifles was useful for fireforming brass.
 
Reloader 7 works okay with reduced loads, i don't like H-335 or even varget for very reduced loads, I like AA5744 and IMR SR 4759...no ball powders. Lyman's 49th shows loads for Unique,2400,4759,IMR 4227,AA5744, and IMR4198, the last four powders are stick powders with similar burning rates, quicker then H-335 or Varget..IMHO...Ben
 
Try the 2400. I use 16 grains in most any 30 caliber or bigger cartridge (I don't load for 7.62.39 though). It's a nice mild load that's cheap to shoot and plenty accurate.

2400 also has a reputation for not being 'position sensitive' making it ideal for reduced rifle loads.

Nick
 
As a general statement I've had my best cast bullet reults with either of the 4198's in 303 Br, 7.62x54 and 8x57 Mauser. Also works well in my 03A3 but I've got a load with 2400 that shoots with slightly better accuracy. Lyman manuals are one of the best sources for cast bullet information. Back issues of the Cast Bullet Association journal "The Fouling Shot" are excellant sources as well. Also see their web site.
 
Do you guys think that Richard LEE was being an idiot when he started attacking that Lyman cast bullet handbook by saying all the loads were crap because they used slow powders? He goes into a rant about slow powders being inconsistent and you should only use fast powder. The reason I bring this up is because you guys say A2400 is good and I've been trying to stick with fast powders only.
 
NiceRice858 said:
Do you guys think that Richard LEE was being an idiot when he started attacking that Lyman cast bullet handbook by saying all the loads were crap because they used slow powders? He goes into a rant about slow powders being inconsistent and you should only use fast powder. The reason I bring this up is because you guys say A2400 is good and I've been trying to stick with fast powders only.
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I don't know who Richard Lee is, but the Lyman books on loading cast bullets have been around for a few generations longer than he has. It is generally considered as the final word on that subject, by multitudes of shooters, past and present.
You appear to be rating 2400 as a slow powder. If this is so, then you and I are just not on the same page.
Faster powders are OK in rifle cartridges for light loads with cast bullets. However, faster powders will not get the bullets up to the velocities they are capable of. In bottle neck rifle cases, 2400 is too fast to get the best out of cast bullets. For example, the Lyman book on the 303 British, with 205 grain gas check bullets, lists 3031 as giving a velocity of 2365 fps. Will a factory loaded 205 grain jacketed give this velocity? I doubt it.
There used to be a very popular rifle powder in the US, called Hi Vel #2. If ever there was a universal rifle powder, this was it. It was used extensively, by virtually every handloader of the day, in a very wide array of rifle calibres. It was used by the US military to make a target loading for their 30-06 Springfield, which may just have been the best target ammo ever developed for that rifle.
Lyman lists it for nearly every, if not every, bottle neck loading in cast bullets, as well as for the 45-70.
The Lyman cast book lists Hi Vel as giving a velocity of 2450, for the 205 grain gas check in 303 British.
These velocities are far and away higher, than any powders faster than 2400 can give.
 
I have to echo H4831's comments. The majority of loads in the Lyman manual are low to mid-range at best and tend to use the faster burning powders that are suitable in rifles for those purposes. I fault the Lyman manual for not putting enough emphasis on slower burning powders to achieve good hunting velocities. By slower, think of the 4895's at the quicker end of slow burning, H4831, IMR4831, Re 19 or similar. They will allow you to achieve hunting velocity while maintaining low pressures and slower pressure rise and get excellent accuracy.
 
Normally 2400 is considered a slow powder for HANDGUNS and not even on the scale for rifle powders, it is that fast...but these powders in the range of 2400up to 4198 and RL-7, AA2015, including 4759 and 5744, which were made for reduced loads, all fall in the very useful range for reduced loads in rifle cals.
 
H4831 said:
I don't know who Richard Lee is, but the Lyman books on loading cast bullets have been around for a few generations longer than he has. It is generally considered as the final word on that subject, by multitudes of shooters, past and present.
You appear to be rating 2400 as a slow powder. If this is so, then you and I are just not on the same page.
Faster powders are OK in rifle cartridges for light loads with cast bullets. However, faster powders will not get the bullets up to the velocities they are capable of. In bottle neck rifle cases, 2400 is too fast to get the best out of cast bullets. For example, the Lyman book on the 303 British, with 205 grain gas check bullets, lists 3031 as giving a velocity of 2365 fps. Will a factory loaded 205 grain jacketed give this velocity? I doubt it.
There used to be a very popular rifle powder in the US, called Hi Vel #2. If ever there was a universal rifle powder, this was it. It was used extensively, by virtually every handloader of the day, in a very wide array of rifle calibres. It was used by the US military to make a target loading for their 30-06 Springfield, which may just have been the best target ammo ever developed for that rifle.
Lyman lists it for nearly every, if not every, bottle neck loading in cast bullets, as well as for the 45-70.
The Lyman cast book lists Hi Vel as giving a velocity of 2450, for the 205 grain gas check in 303 British.
These velocities are far and away higher, than any powders faster than 2400 can give.
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Alright I meant to respond to this the other night but I found out I might have diabetes and had to go to the hospital lol. Alright here we go:

Richard Lee wrote "Modern Reloading", I believe he's the guy who founded LEE precision. He writes about cast bullet reloading something to the tune of: "There's another major reloading company that wrote a book about cast bullets and it sucks because they include slow burning powders". The Lyman book is what he was referring to I bet.

For the a2400 powder I totally messed it up with another one so that was embarrassing. I checked last night and it burns a hair faster than Varget and more than a hair over H335. I realize that super fast burning powders like Bullseye have to be kept in small charges or you'll blow up the rifle, so you have to use a medium burning powder so the bullet can get up to speed, this is why I'm sticking with Varget it seems to be right in the middle. If I'm completely wrong, please advise, I don't have that Lyman book and I'm not buying it until the 4th edition comes out this year. I made up a batch last night of Varget 24, 25 , 26, 27 & 28 grains 3.05 COAL (Touches the lands and fits in the magazine!) I have no clue what the velocity will be but I'm guessing 1600-1800fps.

If I were to ask for the loads you guys have in that 3rd edition Lyman manual, would that be illegal? I don't want to run out and buy that book because the 4th edition is coming out in the Spring, but I'm anxious to shoot now.
 
Perhaps Lyman staff were aware that cast bullets, unless cast with a very hard mix and sporting a gas-check, leave much lead deposits behind when driven at speeds in excess of 2000fps...
And lubrication has to be right on the button, too.
PP.
 
Yeah that's exactly what I want to avoid, that magic 2000fps mark. If I can work up an accurate load around 1750-1950 FPS, I'll be so happy. Should make for one awesome 25-200 yard round.
 
Out of my 45th Edition Lyman book.
205 grain cast w/ gas check
Bullet #311299 # 2 alloy
Powder Start Vel Max Vel
Unique 10.0 1510 14.0 1600
2400 19.0 1628 24.0 1893
IMR4227 23.0 1745 27.0 1953

H335 will do nicely for jacketed bullets. Not so much for cast.
 
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