Cast or Forged?

[richardoldfield]

Tell me what makes a good forged frame/slide so much better than a good cast frame/slide? I asked a knowledgeable friend this question and he said that a forged frame/slide starts life as a casting. His opine was if you buy either a descent cast or forged frame/slide it wouldn’t make a difference. What do you think? Regards, Richard

 

[Griffoneur]

Forged steel is harder than cast.

 

[Hitzy]

Cast can be made as strong as forged, but at the price of increased size. I have no problem with cast for small non-stressed parts of a firearm. I don't like plastic on my firearms either......

 

[Cocked&Locked]

Forged steel is harder than cast.

No it isn't. In a non heat treated state, forgings MAY be stronger then casting, espically sand castings. MIM is practically forging for the effect it has and there is no real functional difference between a properly designed MIM part and a billet one. Predjudice against casting developed when the first castings where investment cast and where of poorer quality. Most frames now "forged" are MIM'd oversize first and then struck in forging dies to align grain structure. This does increase durability and directional strength. Hardness is related to carbon and alloy content and heat treating. Forging has nothing to do with this.

 

[Big JD-From the hills]

Suposedly the BHP in .40s&w had to be made from cast because the forged slides and frames kept warping?

 

[NAA]

Suposedly the BHP in .40s&w had to be made from cast because the forged slides and frames kept warping?

Gotta source for that?

 

[Big JD-From the hills]

Just something I recall reading, I think that all the hi powers post 93 are cast frames now... maybe the slides are still forged?

 

[Detective_Special]

BHP cast

Gotta source for that?

Slides were never cast, but frames were changed to cast when the 40 cal Hi-powers suffered from warped and cracked frames. Now both 9mm and 40 frames are cast.
Here is a good source:

http://hipowersandhandguns.com/HiPowers9mmvs40.htm

 

[Big JD-From the hills]

ok sorry for the misinformation.... Just the frames I guess.

 

[Detective_Special]

cast

Just something I recall reading, I think that all the hi powers post 93 are cast frames now... maybe the slides are still forged?

No need to apologize JD, sounds like your right on. Cast frames, forged slides

 

[No1paperpuncher]

I say forged.

cant shoot army surplus in my MINI-30 because its cast...might blow up in my face not safe....gotta use commercial ammo...unfortunate...

 

[Cocked&Locked]

I say forged.

cant shoot army surplus in my MINI-30 because its cast...might blow up in my face not safe....gotta use commercial ammo...unfortunate...

?! wow, I guess a lot of people out there live lucky lives? Where did you hear that?

 

[Big JD-From the hills]

Thats 100% not true, they do have 308 grove diameter however, but built in a way to handle the larger diameter ammo.

 

[hoote]

I own one of the early HP 40's and have a good collection of 9's. I agree with Cocked and Locked's comments with regard to cast/forged parts. The link provided by Det Spec's comment is accurate in every respect from my point of view except that I do like the 40 as a round. Additional comments I have are; the case in a 40 HP is unsupported. By that I mean that the portion of the case over the feed ramp is not surrounded by the chamber. Only the fact that the joint of the case wall and the web are just inside and supported by the chamber prevents possible case wall blowouts. This is no big deal as a number of other guns such as Glock have chamber/feed ramp and case scenarios. This situation does become an issue if self inflicted gunsmith problem creators alter feed ramp angles or polish feed ramps such that the case walls become unsupported, then case ruptures can occur. Early Factory Ammo and some of the early reload data that I used exhibited case wall bulges, pitched the empty cases way out there and finally broke the nose off the extractor. I have probably fired 5 t0 6000 rds of reloads since the extractor failure with no problems and the cases end up 10 to 15 feet from the firing point. Enjoy the gun to death now!

 

[Bartledan]

Casings fail in a brittle fashion, forgings in a ductile fashion, in general.

The difference is not in strength or stiffness. The affected property is "fracture toughness". It is the ability of the material to absorb shock loads without damage, and forgings *always* outperform castings.

Don't even bother bringing up nodular cast iron, AKA ductile iron. compared to a steel forging, it is still a weak sister.

Fact:

Forging is better, casting is cheaper.

Also fact:

You will never know the difference between a forging with a factor of safety of eight, and a casting with a factor of safety of five.

The BHP frames warped because they were poorly struck, and improperly heat treated (normalized) before finish machining. Nothing more.

 

[acrashb]

Fact:

Forging is better

Not necessarily. In some automotive applications, for example, cast crankshafts are preferred because they are dimensionally more stable.

Not every 'cast' is the same, as C&L has pointed out.

 

[Big JD-From the hills]

There is also a huge difference between cast iron, and cast aloy steels.

 

[BBq_Woa!]

Only guns made from Diamond are strong. all others are puny Humon creations.

 

[Cocked&Locked]

Only guns made from Diamond are strong. all others are puny Humon creations.

Actually, diamond had a rather poor shock strength...........

 

[Cocked&Locked]

Casings fail in a brittle fashion, forgings in a ductile fashion, in general.

Very valid point. Castings will usually fracture into pieces, whereas forgings usually exhibit more of a tearing effect.

Fact:

Forging is better, casting is cheaper.

No, for certain applications casting is better. Non stresses components (IE-frames) might as well be cast as it is plenty strong enough for the task at hand and saves cost. Done properly, it saves both time and money as it removes the need for many machining operations.

Also fact:

You will never know the difference between a forging with a factor of safety of eight, and a casting with a factor of safety of five.

Or indeed, a casting with a safety factor of 8 and a forging with a safety factor of 5, because that is out there too....

The BHP frames warped because they were poorly struck, and improperly heat treated (normalized) before finish machining. Nothing more

But rather then correct the dies and change heat treat parameters they invested in casting equipment instead? Forging is not suitable for all applications, esp when cross sections start to get very thin, it's hard to remove all residual stresses....

There is a place for both in firearms, and the main functional difference is prejudice, not functionality. People think casting and associate it with the old well pump in the back yard. And all the writers slobber and drool when they say the word forging. Both have a place and in that place they are the superior manufacturing form. They cast barrels for 16" naval guns, nothing we shoot is much in comparison.