Casting bullets: Is it worth it? Time consuming?
- Thread starter thebaron
- Start date
I've used cast bullets in my semi auto ruger but its important to make sure they are full loads or they won't cycle the action, hotter the better. I never found leading to be a problem either, I would clean the gun after every session because the lube can plug up the gas port.
mattfrombc
Regular
I'm still using my coleman stove for my casting activities. Works well enough for my purposes since im only doing it for my .45 handgun. I've found that if you get organized and do up a whole ####load of wheel weights into ingots that will keep you supplied with bullet making material for quite a while. I've been using the fairly inexpensive Lee 6 cavity mould with good sucess so far (just gotta be careful with them as you do most lee stuff I find).
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Actually, that is the beauty of cast bullets, you can make the bullets do anything you want.
by adjusting the alloy and how it is made, you can make the cast equivalent of FMJ to partitions.
The neatest tech I have learnt about is probably 150/200yrs old. This is making softnose cast bullets. Way back when, they also had concerns about their cast bullets not expanding enough on 'soft' game and in smaller cals.
So they figured out how to put a softer lead 'top' onto a hard alloy 'bottom'. You make the bullet in two stages and you get a slug that expands rapidly on impact yet retains a hard base to blast through big bones if encountered.
You can also adjust the amount of soft nose vs hard bottom. Exactly what SWIFT did with its A-frame hunting bullets and what Nosler had to recently do to appease the retained weight crowd.
Voila, partition performance you can make in your backyard. Accuracy is no different then a single alloy slug.
some have reversed the process to ensure proper bore seal when using really goofy barrels and not having hollow base molds.
Then there is paper patching which gets you into some pretty impressive velocities, gas checks, hollow points/bases, different nose shapes, grease grooves, and on it goes.
Pretty soon, you are thinking about custom molds and crazy wildcats, indexing bullets and dies, all sorts of sorting and weighing, making your own super lubes, special cast bullet barrels and sub MOA accuracy.
Honestly, best if you don't get started...
Jerry
by adjusting the alloy and how it is made, you can make the cast equivalent of FMJ to partitions.
The neatest tech I have learnt about is probably 150/200yrs old. This is making softnose cast bullets. Way back when, they also had concerns about their cast bullets not expanding enough on 'soft' game and in smaller cals.
So they figured out how to put a softer lead 'top' onto a hard alloy 'bottom'. You make the bullet in two stages and you get a slug that expands rapidly on impact yet retains a hard base to blast through big bones if encountered.
You can also adjust the amount of soft nose vs hard bottom. Exactly what SWIFT did with its A-frame hunting bullets and what Nosler had to recently do to appease the retained weight crowd.
Voila, partition performance you can make in your backyard. Accuracy is no different then a single alloy slug.
some have reversed the process to ensure proper bore seal when using really goofy barrels and not having hollow base molds.
Then there is paper patching which gets you into some pretty impressive velocities, gas checks, hollow points/bases, different nose shapes, grease grooves, and on it goes.
Pretty soon, you are thinking about custom molds and crazy wildcats, indexing bullets and dies, all sorts of sorting and weighing, making your own super lubes, special cast bullet barrels and sub MOA accuracy.
Honestly, best if you don't get started...
Jerry
You can actually launch cast bullets a lot faster than 1600 fps. If you use a real good lube and gas check, there are guys doing 2700 fps plus and no leading. Hunting with a cast bullet? Well look back in history hell go back a hindred years and that is just about all there was. You will spoil alot less meat with a cast bullet than a jacketted bullet.
Ken.
Ken.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
kodiak1, any links for more info on these fast slugs?
Jerry
Jerry
I spent a day on Google doing research, but I didn't bookmark any links 
Bottom line is this:
-cast with a pure linotype alloy
-water-quench (drop the hot bullets out of the mold into a pail of water)
-Gascheck them (and size if necessary, but this will soften them though, so avoid this step if possible.)
-heat treat for ultimate hardness (get a toaster oven. heat it till just under the melting point of your bullets - test temperature with a sacrificial bullet or two. Then roast all your bullets for a few hours. Remove from oven, and dump 'em into a pail of water)
-moly-coat (optional)
-lube with a hard high-speed lube (I like lyman moly lube)
You should be able to get up to a brinnell hardness of 35 easily with this method, possibly as high as 50 or 60. (Copper is 80 IIRC)
Bottom line is this:
-cast with a pure linotype alloy
-water-quench (drop the hot bullets out of the mold into a pail of water)
-Gascheck them (and size if necessary, but this will soften them though, so avoid this step if possible.)
-heat treat for ultimate hardness (get a toaster oven. heat it till just under the melting point of your bullets - test temperature with a sacrificial bullet or two. Then roast all your bullets for a few hours. Remove from oven, and dump 'em into a pail of water)
-moly-coat (optional)
-lube with a hard high-speed lube (I like lyman moly lube)
You should be able to get up to a brinnell hardness of 35 easily with this method, possibly as high as 50 or 60. (Copper is 80 IIRC)
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Thanks prosper. I knew it involved a variety of heat treating steps.
For now, I am comparing air cooled vs water quenched 'vld' 30cal cast bullets. I want to see if water queching distorts the bullets enough to reduce accuracy.
From there, I hope to play with heat treating and alloy mixtures to increase velocity AND retain accuracy. 2MOA typically encountered with cast bullets is of little interest to me. My goal is MOA or better at these elevated velocities.
Now I can duplicate 308 smokeless performance in a cast bullet. Better yet, I can get some big bores in 40 and 45 cal going for LR shooting.
How about a 400gr 40cal or 550gr 45 cal GC spitzer going over 2400fps with MOA accuracy? That'll move some dirt at 1000m.
I have some but not had the time to make high speed lube using moly bearing grease and wax for a lube. Sounds like an interesting concoction.
Also, what it the metal added to wheel weights to make it as hard as linotype (can't get linotype here)?
Jerry
For now, I am comparing air cooled vs water quenched 'vld' 30cal cast bullets. I want to see if water queching distorts the bullets enough to reduce accuracy.
From there, I hope to play with heat treating and alloy mixtures to increase velocity AND retain accuracy. 2MOA typically encountered with cast bullets is of little interest to me. My goal is MOA or better at these elevated velocities.
Now I can duplicate 308 smokeless performance in a cast bullet. Better yet, I can get some big bores in 40 and 45 cal going for LR shooting.
How about a 400gr 40cal or 550gr 45 cal GC spitzer going over 2400fps with MOA accuracy? That'll move some dirt at 1000m.
I have some but not had the time to make high speed lube using moly bearing grease and wax for a lube. Sounds like an interesting concoction.
Also, what it the metal added to wheel weights to make it as hard as linotype (can't get linotype here)?
Jerry
Well, to make the water cooling effective, you need antimony or aresenic in the mix. Wheel weights generally have a little of both, so you're probably OK there. All you really need is tin, you can get it from plumber's supply shops. 50/50 lead/tin solder bars are a good source of tin.
'Magnum' lead shot usually has a high antimony content as well.
Expect to do a lot of expirimentation. MOA or better with cast is entirely possible. Some folks even think that cast have higher accuracy potential due to the extremely granular level of control you have throughout the entire process.
For the utmost accuracy, you'd be advised to heat treat for 8 hours or more, and the leave the bullets in room-temperature water for 2-3 weeks afterwards. Hardness takes a while to settle for some reason.
'Magnum' lead shot usually has a high antimony content as well.
Expect to do a lot of expirimentation. MOA or better with cast is entirely possible. Some folks even think that cast have higher accuracy potential due to the extremely granular level of control you have throughout the entire process.
For the utmost accuracy, you'd be advised to heat treat for 8 hours or more, and the leave the bullets in room-temperature water for 2-3 weeks afterwards. Hardness takes a while to settle for some reason.
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Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
On the water quenching, I have heard the opposite where the 'cell' structure of the alloy is changed almost instantly when rapidly cooled. That makes sense to me. I think the only thing that soaking in water will do is create a layer of oxidation around the bullet. The bullet doesn't chemically react with water internally.
Same goes for heating up. Slow is good as the alloy may just surface melt, distorting the bullet. However, once the alloy has reached that magic temp throughout its core. Further heating shouldn't do alot.
At any rate, just more things to play with. Will have to dig up some alloy receipes then get a way to test hardness. The lee system looked so good but doesn't look like it ever made it to the stores.
Will have to see about a heavy weight/dimpling system to make for cheap. All we need is relative hardness vs max velocity. The actual BN number really doesn't matter.
As to cast being more accurate then jacketed, that would be really cool. However, trying to beat groups in the 1's will be quite challenging to say the least.
Except for the occasional flyer, I am approaching MOA at 180yds with some groups 1/2 MOA. The goal, sub MOA consistently at that distance then see what that load would do at much further distances.
Love to say clays at 500 or 600 or 700yds.
The LR crowd is already at 2MOA at 1000yds. Sometimes better. That is amazing considering that most are shot with open sights and these bullets have horrid ballistics by comparison.
Jerry
Same goes for heating up. Slow is good as the alloy may just surface melt, distorting the bullet. However, once the alloy has reached that magic temp throughout its core. Further heating shouldn't do alot.
At any rate, just more things to play with. Will have to dig up some alloy receipes then get a way to test hardness. The lee system looked so good but doesn't look like it ever made it to the stores.
Will have to see about a heavy weight/dimpling system to make for cheap. All we need is relative hardness vs max velocity. The actual BN number really doesn't matter.
As to cast being more accurate then jacketed, that would be really cool. However, trying to beat groups in the 1's will be quite challenging to say the least.
Except for the occasional flyer, I am approaching MOA at 180yds with some groups 1/2 MOA. The goal, sub MOA consistently at that distance then see what that load would do at much further distances.
Love to say clays at 500 or 600 or 700yds.
The LR crowd is already at 2MOA at 1000yds. Sometimes better. That is amazing considering that most are shot with open sights and these bullets have horrid ballistics by comparison.
Jerry
mystic player the easiest way to tell you how to get ahold of the fellow is to go on ebay go to reloading stuff and look for the guy advertising the lubes.
lars something is his email address and he sells 3 or 4 different kinds of lubes
He is out of Pocatella Idaho.
50/50 alox and beeswax
highspeed
one with carnuba wax
Black powder lube.
They are all great lubes have used the high speed and the 50/50 in pistols and rifles and have used the blackpowder in my sharps and rolling block.
He makes a hell of a good product and is very very reasonable.
He has answered all of my questions, always answered emails and true to his word.
The reason I can't tell you the email address is I had a really bad virus and my address list got the snot beat out of it as well as my windows. So now I have to rebuild that part after reloading a bunch of programs.
Ken
lars something is his email address and he sells 3 or 4 different kinds of lubes
He is out of Pocatella Idaho.
50/50 alox and beeswax
highspeed
one with carnuba wax
Black powder lube.
They are all great lubes have used the high speed and the 50/50 in pistols and rifles and have used the blackpowder in my sharps and rolling block.
He makes a hell of a good product and is very very reasonable.
He has answered all of my questions, always answered emails and true to his word.
The reason I can't tell you the email address is I had a really bad virus and my address list got the snot beat out of it as well as my windows. So now I have to rebuild that part after reloading a bunch of programs.
Ken
prosper said:
The 45/70 340 grain cast is up to 2170 fps. Hasnt been cleaned in 100 rounds or so,still shoots nickle size groups at the hundred. The lott is moving 525 grains at 2375, on about its 40th round with no cleaning. And I've got about 150 through buddies 223 at 3500. He cleaned that,not cause it was getting poor accuracy or such,but just figured he was done for the season. Casting has changed a lot fellas...Unfortunately PROSPER the age old thought of the harder the better is dead. It has been realized that a cast projectile will not pump the lube out to the bore if its to hard
All I use for lead is either wheel weights or scrap (mostly scrap bullets recovered from backstops). Alloy's like lino are almost impossible to find areound these parts (commercial use of lino in the printing industry pretty much stopped 20 years ago).
For "normal" pistol bullets I use scrap lead or equal parts of wheel weights and scrap. When fit well to the gun these can go up to 1800 fps (.357 Mag in a carbine - no gas check).
I use straight wheel weight material (water quenched) for rifle loads over 1800 fps, with gas check. WW material casts well if you use anough heat. While tin improves the flow of alloy it is too expensive - more heat will do pretty much the same thing.
I only use soft lubes. In my experience they work much better (less leading) than hard lubes. Hard lubes are a disadvantage as you end up needing a lube heater. Hard lubes offer no advantage other than they are less sticky if used in bullet feeder devices on progressive presses. I've also had more leading with hard lubes than I have with soft. Currently I make my own lubes, one with lithium grease and beeswax for rifle and the other with beeswax and wax gasket material. They are cheap and work well (rifle lube works fine up to 2500 fps.
The key to success in shooting cast bullets is to fit them to the throat of the firearm. It is the single most important thing to pay attention to.
For "normal" pistol bullets I use scrap lead or equal parts of wheel weights and scrap. When fit well to the gun these can go up to 1800 fps (.357 Mag in a carbine - no gas check).
I use straight wheel weight material (water quenched) for rifle loads over 1800 fps, with gas check. WW material casts well if you use anough heat. While tin improves the flow of alloy it is too expensive - more heat will do pretty much the same thing.
I only use soft lubes. In my experience they work much better (less leading) than hard lubes. Hard lubes are a disadvantage as you end up needing a lube heater. Hard lubes offer no advantage other than they are less sticky if used in bullet feeder devices on progressive presses. I've also had more leading with hard lubes than I have with soft. Currently I make my own lubes, one with lithium grease and beeswax for rifle and the other with beeswax and wax gasket material. They are cheap and work well (rifle lube works fine up to 2500 fps.
The key to success in shooting cast bullets is to fit them to the throat of the firearm. It is the single most important thing to pay attention to.
True enough PE Islander,what the throat allignment is doing is very important. When you get into the HV stuff with large projectiles. things like consistant hardness,bullet balance,%of surface driving the proj. etc etc all add up to
mysticplayer said:
Only every store
Only in so much as you can take the BNH and multiply by 1422 for minimum chamber pressure,required for lube pumping,and max fps calcs
22" groups arent that impressive.A moa is a little over an inch at 100 and the number multiplies with distance as it is a function of an angle
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
blindside, haven't found anyone offering them yet. If someone has a set in stock, please let me know. yep, know about the math to convert but going to low tech method and just using relative hardness.
Same thing, different number.
Actually, given the platform and ballistics of the cast rifles, 2MOA under match conditions at 1000yds is very very good.
Just got back from the Osoyoos 1000m fun shoot. Lots of really nice gear there and shooters who know a thing or two about driving a bullet. However, winds were horrid (as usual). The number of sub MOA groups shot were very few dispite having the shooters and gear to do the job.
Many were having a hard time shooting 1.5, even 2 MOA under the conditions.
Most of the gear used the best bullets and set ups we know of today. How about starting the day with a 4 5/8" group then not breaking MOA the rest of the shoot? That's nasty winds!!!!
Now compare that cast bullets rarely have a BC over 0.5 (most VLD bullets we use have BC well above that). In fact, most are in the 3's. Muzzle velocity is usually under 1500fps (many just at or just under the speed of sound) so time of flight is THREE TO FOUR times the 6.5-284 (you want wind drift). Shot with open sights with a sling on their elbows.
Yes, that is very good driving indeed...
Jerry
Same thing, different number.
Actually, given the platform and ballistics of the cast rifles, 2MOA under match conditions at 1000yds is very very good.
Just got back from the Osoyoos 1000m fun shoot. Lots of really nice gear there and shooters who know a thing or two about driving a bullet. However, winds were horrid (as usual). The number of sub MOA groups shot were very few dispite having the shooters and gear to do the job.
Many were having a hard time shooting 1.5, even 2 MOA under the conditions.
Most of the gear used the best bullets and set ups we know of today. How about starting the day with a 4 5/8" group then not breaking MOA the rest of the shoot? That's nasty winds!!!!
Now compare that cast bullets rarely have a BC over 0.5 (most VLD bullets we use have BC well above that). In fact, most are in the 3's. Muzzle velocity is usually under 1500fps (many just at or just under the speed of sound) so time of flight is THREE TO FOUR times the 6.5-284 (you want wind drift). Shot with open sights with a sling on their elbows.
Yes, that is very good driving indeed...
Jerry
