Casting HARD - VERY HARD for smokeless

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Well I'm going to start casting next week but first i'm going to blend some metal
I will casting for smokeless powder at velocities of 1400 - 1500 fps

I have a massive chunk of lead sheeting and 36 lbs of 30/70 tin to lead one pound bars.
I want to get as consistant as possible and if I need to, add wheel weights.

Any suggestions greatly appreciated.
 
For that speed I simply use water quenched wheelweights and a gas check. "Very hard" can cause lead fouling due to gas cutting, the cast projectile works best when allowed to bump up upon ignition.. More details needed- such as what firearm/caliber will you be using would be a place to start.
 
any lead between 8.5 - 11.5 brinell is good for up and including sonic speed..(800-1400 f/s, respectively)..interpretation 25-1 - aged ww, is what you want...rifles ( up to 3400f/s +gas checks) will require24-28 brinell.. sourced "casting bullets for the beginner and expert" second edition , 2007- joe breman..

good luck and happy shooting

you may need a hardness tester such as the" warlock lead tester" which is based brinell scale.
 
Lee makes a hardness tester $80.00 ..... Higginsonpowders.com
Roto metals sells a 5lb ignot of 30% antimony ( reasonable shipping ) rotometals.com
Home hardware sells a lead free solder 95% tin ( good a price as any ) local

If you have a good heat source you can cast the roto metals ignot 800+ into smaller chunks, but if using an eletric pot , you will need to cut it in chunks you can use .. Band saw etc.
 
Add 1-2 oz of comercial hard shot to your WW lead as this will increase the arsenic % in your melt , and this acts as a catalyst for the antimony (SB) that is already present. With water dropping or oven heat treting you can easily increase the hardness of WW lead to 33-35 brinnel As you had mentioned that you have lead sheeting, you will have to add antimony to it to gain any advantage of trying to het treat your slugs ( either by water dropping or oven heat treating ) as straight lead will no "harden" . This is good if you are trying to duplicate armor piercing progectiles!!! I am currently shooting air cooled WW alloy "boolits" at over 2000 fps ( they are gas checked ) out of a 7 0/8 pistol with absolutely no leading. Your 30/70 I would keep separate and only use it sparingly to sweeten your lead alloy when you feel the need for it as the tin (SN) just aids in mould cavity fill out to a max of 2% by weight ' more is just a waste of tin ( it does add a little toughness) And maleability to your boolits. For all the answers that you need , check out the cast boolits website , great bunch of guy's and always willing to lend a hand with the info that you seek!
 
1Shot has the right idea.

A really hard bullet alloy is not necessarily the answer. Its all about "load balance". Bullet/style/weight/quality, powder type or burn rate/charge/load density, seating depth/concentricity, and, rifling twist rate for the velocity desired/achieved.

Shooting cast bullets with smokeless does not necessarily require a hard alloy.

With the proper bullet diameter for your bore, properly applied ,quality bullet lube, and a very straight/concentrically seated bullet that will enter the rifling smoothly, will give the load combination the basic building blocks needed for accurate cast bullet performance.

For instance, In my .308Win target rifle:
I shoot straight wheel weight bullets (air cooled). (Lyman Bullet Mould #311299,200 grain) I size my bullets .002" over my "ACTUAL" bore diameter (sized to .310").
I use either Hornady copper gaschecks, or my own .015" thick brass gaschecks.
Lyman super moly bullet lube.
I Seat the bullets around .010" into the lands/rifling to give the bullet a chance to start down the bore perfectly straight. A straight started bullet, and good ignition pressures aid in a well sealed/contained initial combustion. A cast bullet "lightly" engraved into and supported by the lands/bore slightly increases the initial ignition pressures, allowing for more consistent load standard deviations.

Cast bullets DO obturate/bump up proportionately to the pressure created, and relative bullet alloy hardness. (If too much pressure is applied to the bullet), the bullet alloy tends to "YIELD", ( and doesn't return to original dimensions after the pressure drops), and the damaged bullet continues for the trip down the bore destined to ruin accuracy! A damaged cast bullet traveling down a bore will leak propellant gasses erratically, spray bullet lube from the grooves ahead of the bullet, and creates the perfect conditions for leading and bullet instability. It is all about finding the perfect balance of pressure/load for the alloy you have casted.

It can be allot of work to find this load, but pays off with great performance.

As load pressures increase, some component of the load recipe will eventually start to fail. (The accuracy will be your best indicator with cast bullets). Knowing which/how these components are failing, (lube/alloy/or both), aids the cast bullet shooter in assessing the problem and adjusting the loading components to overcome the problem/failure.

I have some loads that will shoot this 311299 bullet no faster than 1700-1800fps, without accuracy falling apart. (Faster powders)
With a powder change, I was able to increase the effective/accurate velocity up to 2000-2200fps. (Slower powder, IMR4350)
Again, with another change in powder, I can get 2300-2400fps ACCURATELY. (IMR4831), (2-3" groups at 200 yards).


One of the biggest contributing reasons I can achieve this velocity is the twist rate of the barrel. (1:12"). faster twists like 1:10", tend to induce more gyroscopic stress on a cast bullet at identical velocities. the faster the bullet is spun, the more dramatic the inherent flaws in a cast bullet are exposed. Sort of a velocity threshold, so to speak.

Get yourself a new copy of the Lyman cast bullet reloading manual. It is a wealth of information.

Good luck on your load development.

Allow yourself time, and a few load failures. Cast shooting is challenging sometimes, and it can take dedication/determination.

When it all comes together, its very satisfying indeed!

I hope this information helps you. :rockOn:
 
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Just got my Boomer mould to cast for my 45-90 Sharps using only smokeless. My intensions were to reach out consistently and accurately to 800 yards.
I have several powders I'm going to try with which I've had phenomenal success with my 45-70. At a buck a bar of 30/70, I was planning to add 2 lbs of pur lead / bar
which by my calculations (for each lb pur PB you add the tin is reduced by 1/2 by total volume) will give me a 7.5 / 92.5 and a BH of approx 11.

Or am I blowing in the wind.
 
I have shot one moose with a bullet I cast, it was a 500 grain Lee with a gas check at about 1860 fps out of the 45/70. I used 53 grains of 3031 to achieve this. It worked like a charm, and I have 300 jacketed 405 grain bullets for it I will never use..
 
If you have high tin content lead don't be in so much of a rush to mix it with other lead-- you might be sorry

if you make your high tin content lead in to 1 lb bars it is very easy to mix it with other lead to make (close to) uniform batches

A cheep way of checking harness is the pencil test, with a drawing pencil (see below)

h t tp://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?75455-Testing-hardness-with-pencils

I have pushed 11-12 bhn air cooled rifle bullets with a gascheck to 1800-1900 fps no problem in fact i shot 400 rounds without cleaning --- and only cleaned rifle because It got rained on
 
1Shot has the right idea.

A really hard bullet alloy is not necessarily the answer. Its all about "load balance". Bullet/style/weight/quality, powder type or burn rate/charge/load density, seating depth/concentricity, and, rifling twist rate for the velocity desired/achieved.

...

That is some great info, DThunter. I just started casting boolits and I learned a lot right there despite a lot of reading and hanging out in CastBoolits forum. Thanks.
 
If you have high tin content lead don't be in so much of a rush to mix it with other lead-- you might be sorry

if you make your high tin content lead in to 1 lb bars it is very easy to mix it with other lead to make (close to) uniform batches

That is exactly my thought. Tin is 10 times the price of lead, and very difficult to obtain as scrap. 30% Tin isn't needed.
 
As mentioned, wheel weights quenched in water will get you past 1500 fps.

I'm shooting cast in my Lee Enfields at well over 2000 fps using water dropped wheel weight bullets with an aluminum gas check.

My dad is pushing plain based cast out of his 45-70 to around 2200 fps...
 
1Shot has the right idea.

A really hard bullet alloy is not necessarily the answer. Its all about "load balance". Bullet/style/weight/quality, powder type or burn rate/charge/load density, seating depth/concentricity, and, rifling twist rate for the velocity desired/achieved.

Shooting cast bullets with smokeless does not necessarily require a hard alloy.

With the proper bullet diameter for your bore, properly applied ,quality bullet lube, and a very straight/concentrically seated bullet that will enter the rifling smoothly, will give the load combination the basic building blocks needed for accurate cast bullet performance.

For instance, In my .308Win target rifle:
I shoot straight wheel weight bullets (air cooled). (Lyman Bullet Mould #311299,200 grain) I size my bullets .002" over my "ACTUAL" bore diameter (sized to .310").
I use either Hornady copper gaschecks, or my own .015" thick brass gaschecks.
Lyman super moly bullet lube.
I Seat the bullets around .010" into the lands/rifling to give the bullet a chance to start down the bore perfectly straight. A straight started bullet, and good ignition pressures aid in a well sealed/contained initial combustion. A cast bullet "lightly" engraved into and supported by the lands/bore slightly increases the initial ignition pressures, allowing for more consistent load standard deviations.

Cast bullets DO obturate/bump up proportionately to the pressure created, and relative bullet alloy hardness. (If too much pressure is applied to the bullet), the bullet alloy tends to "YIELD", ( and doesn't return to original dimensions after the pressure drops), and the damaged bullet continues for the trip down the bore destined to ruin accuracy! A damaged cast bullet traveling down a bore will leak propellant gasses erratically, spray bullet lube from the grooves ahead of the bullet, and creates the perfect conditions for leading and bullet instability. It is all about finding the perfect balance of pressure/load for the alloy you have casted.

It can be allot of work to find this load, but pays off with great performance.

As load pressures increase, some component of the load recipe will eventually start to fail. (The accuracy will be your best indicator with cast bullets). Knowing which/how these components are failing, (lube/alloy/or both), aids the cast bullet shooter in assessing the problem and adjusting the loading components to overcome the problem/failure.

I have some loads that will shoot this 311299 bullet no faster than 1700-1800fps, without accuracy falling apart. (Faster powders)
With a powder change, I was able to increase the effective/accurate velocity up to 2000-2200fps. (Slower powder, IMR4350)
Again, with another change in powder, I can get 2300-2400fps ACCURATELY. (IMR4831), (2-3" groups at 200 yards).


One of the biggest contributing reasons I can achieve this velocity is the twist rate of the barrel. (1:12"). faster twists like 1:10", tend to induce more gyroscopic stress on a cast bullet at identical velocities. the faster the bullet is spun, the more dramatic the inherent flaws in a cast bullet are exposed. Sort of a velocity threshold, so to speak.

Get yourself a new copy of the Lyman cast bullet reloading manual. It is a wealth of information.

Good luck on your load development.

Allow yourself time, and a few load failures. Cast shooting is challenging sometimes, and it can take dedication/determination.

When it all comes together, its very satisfying indeed!

I hope this information helps you. :rockOn:

This is as good a dissertation on the subject as any I've heard before. Thanks, great post!
 
It can be a long learning curve before a person comes to the realization that extra hard cast bullets are rarely necessary or even beneficial. They don't make a good hunting bullet being prone to shatter on bone. Don't expand to any extent at all. They may increase leading unless bullet/bore fit is correct.

Air cooled wheel weights with a bit of tin will commonly withstand velocities ranging between 1600 and 2200 depending on barrel twist, powder used , lubricant, etc. OEM nailed it when he called it load balance.

For the velocity range the OP initially referred to even a bit of pure might be added to the alloy to soften it a bit further, perhaps down to BHN 10/11 range. That is what I strive for in bullets used in a 357, M94 Marlin and they are going along at 1500+ . In a sort of test I'm doing there are now close to 1200 rounds down this barrel and no cleaning beyond a single pass with a nylon brush (once only) to clear residual lube and powder fouling to get a better look at the bore has been done. No visible lead and accuracy remains excellent. I am curious to see how long this will continue before any problems arise. My gut feeling is indefinitely other than possibly the throat bore junction but so far I see no problems there.
 
If you're going to hunt with cast lead bullets be careful about water dropping them. Pure lead (tin % doesn't matter much) won't harden if you drop them into water. Wheel weights will harden to somewhere in the 20 brinnell hardness and become very brittle. I tried this and they shattered when shot into wet newspapers. I got better penetration and a beautiful mushroom when I air cooled my bullets and shot them at the same velocity. (1800-2000 fps) Air cooled were lower around 12-15 iirc.
Water dropping is quick and easy if all you want is plinking bullets. You don't have to worry so much about denting bullets by dropping them on each other like you would by dropping them on a soft surface.
 
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