Casting Questions

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glenliz87

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Hello all,
I am just getting into casting my own bullets & have some questions. I will be using wheelweights. What does the BHN have to be for rifle bullets? I am presently using pistol powders with cast bullets in .308 & .303 I just don't know how hard they are as these were purchased commercially.

According to what I've been reading over the net, is to use 1:10 tin with WW. This sounds like a lot of tin, is this correct? Or did I just misunderstand these details? I will be using 50/50 solder or if I can, 60/40 as I got some of this from a rad shop.

My main question is how much solder do you put in 10 lbs of lead? I want to be sure as I don't want to spoil a batch of lead.

I don't have a chrony, but my manual states that I will be under 2000 fps using the listed data. I will also be using gas checks. Any help would be appreciated, thank you.
 
Glenlis87,
The best way to get tin in solder form is to use "Lead free" solder made for plumbing. That's 95-5 content so it is well worth the extra buck a pound. I use 1/3 of the roll for about 3 % in a 10 pound pot. This is enough to help fill out the corners in the mold.
What I do is water quench the bullets right out of the mold, which with wheel weight alloys hardens the bullets. There is a bit of time delay involved, it takes a few days for the total hardening to take place. This is actually good because it will give you a bit of time to lube the bullets. Get at it the same day if you can. Use a sizer that just grazes the bullet or you will break the handle like I did. For 30 calibers the .309 works well for me.
SR4759 is a nearly foolproof way to get rifle cast bullet loads shooting without a lot of fuss.1800 fps seems to be a good speed there. I have taken 185 gr gascheck loads up to 2400 fps in a .308 using H335 and similar surplus powders. No leading, but the accuracy was slightly better at 2200 Pressure seems to be more a factor than velocity. Do yourself a favor and get the Lee Manual. There is enough sort of unorthodox info on cast bullets to justify the $20. Can't have too many manuals anyway.
Dogleg
 
Casting questions

glen: First you need to buy a copy of Lymans Cast Bullet manual. It has answers to most of the questions you are likely to need answered.

The questions I have is what type of mould(s) are you going to be using? Do they have provison for a gas check or not?

As a general rule if you aren't using a gas check you should probably look at loads below 1600fps. but there are exceptions that allow you to squeek a bit more out them.

With air cooled bullets with a gas check you will probably find the accurate limits somewhere between 1700 and 2000 fps., again with some exceptions.

If you water quench or oven harden your bullets you can get some more out of them.

Wheel weights by themselves can make a satisfactory target bullet. If you have trouble with W/W metal not filling the mould completely then you can add some tin usually in the form of solder. A mix of 20-1 is a standard used by a lot of shooters for both target and hunting. That is 20 lbs lead to 1 pound of added tin. So, if you were using 50-50 solder you add enough to get the right mix. The Lyman manual will give you some guidelines as to what W/W and other alloys are composed of when the alloy is new and hasn't been through a number of recycles. For a start try adding 1 pound 50-50 to 19 pounds W/W and see how it casts, works and looks.

If you plan to use them hunting then you can vary the alloy to soften or toughen as you choose.

I suggest you think of loads that fall below 1600 for a plain base bullet and below 1800 for a gas check until you get your feet wet so to speak.

There are a lot of variables in shooting cast bullets and one that is often overlooked is the choice of lubricant used on the bullet. Some lubes are quite critical as to the ambient temperature they are used in, others fall flat at low velocity and some fall flat at higher velocity.

Get the Lyman manual and you will have a lot of good information.
 
1 lb. 95-5 solder to 10lbs lead or 2lbs. 50-50 solder to 10 lbs of lead, as you add smaller amounts later make sure you add proper proportion of tin. You may also want to carefully drop bullets from mould into cold water to quench(harden), try this after you get more comfy with casting process, remember "bullet has ripples" mould and/or mix is too cold...."bullet frosty" mould/mix too hot.....lead smear on top of block after cutting sprue? Sloooowww down!
 
Thanks for the replies. They are most helpful. I already have Lee & Lyman manuals as I was instructed to get. I have ordered the Lyman Cast handbook today & am hoping it is as good as everyone says it is. I will be using 185gr mold (which have a provision for gas check)for .303 since the options are next to none for this caliber. They seem to work fine in my .303. I have 185gr for my .308 as well but they don't shoot worth a damn. I will likely get a mold for 150gr for this caliber with gas check as well. I am hoping that a lighter bullet might help. I will not be using cast for hunting loads, I have jacketed bullets for this purpose. I just want them for plinking with faster powders so I can shoot more often without shoulder bruising..:D
 
The Lyman Cas Book Handbook will become your casting bible. To get lots of good information and advice go to:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/index.php

Great bunch of guys who have been casting for years. As an side I cast, along with a number of handguns calibers, for my 30-30 and 30-06. Using gas checks I have experienced not leading using water quenched wheel weights as an alloy. My 30-06 shoots 100 yard groups under 1/2" at 100 yards from a rest at velocities around 1750 fps using that alloy.

Take Care

Bob
 
Gentlemen
I've been casting for 30 some odd years, mostly for pistols, but some rifles.
Currently I cast for 45 Colt (both pistol and rifle), 45acp, 44 spec, 357 mag, 30-06, 375 Whelen, 405 Winchester and 45-70.
With the rifles I load with cast bullets using the same data that is used for jacketed bullets.
It's relatively easy with the correct alloy (wheel weights sweetened with tin and chilled at casting), a good bullet lube (I use LBT Blue, but Rooster Red works nicely also), annealed gas checks (drop them into a skillet and cook them until they turn black), The correct bullet diameter(.311 for 30s, .413 for 405, .459-460 for 45-70). I'm sure I forgot something. Ahhh .379-380 for the 375. What has worked best for me over the years is to have the bullet engage the lands when chambered. Most of my bullets are bore riding.
I also tinkered with cast bullets in the 243 with success.
The 45 Colt cast bullets are Saeco 300 grain gas checked over 20 grains of H110 for use in a Rossi 92 and the same load does nicely in a Colt Anaconda.
There's a lot of satisfaction seeing a pile of bright shiney silver bullets that I made and seeing lots of holes real close to one another made by those same bullets.
A word of warning though, collecting scrap lead for bullet casting addictive. If you are walking in the city you walk looking down, there;s wheel weights in the gutter.
Jim
 
I have also been casting most of my life and have a part ina bullet making business.....we produce about 75 diff. bullets ,but 40 in our main line.....in all my rifles I can shoot groups as good or better than with jacketed....this is due to constant shooting and testing, trying diff. dia.s , diff. alloys, dif. designs, some bullets just don't shoot well in some guns, so you continue to try to improve your results, thats what makes cast bullets more enjoyable than using bullets someone else made on a computerized machine...there is something special when you shoot that 1/2" group or drop that big buck with ammo you loaded with bullets you made yourself.(and if you used black powder...your the King)
 
glenliz87 said:
Hello all,
I am just getting into casting my own bullets & have some questions. I will be using wheelweights. What does the BHN have to be for rifle bullets?
Click to expand...
Best bullet performance is generally when pressures are between three and four times the tensile strength of the alloy. Tensile strength can be approximated by BHN x 480.

As an example, lets say you're using ordinary old wheelweights with a BHN of 12. That gives you a min/max chamber pressure range of 17,280 - 22,040 psi. Obviously, it helps to have an idea of what the chamber pressures generated by your loads are, but trial and error works as well. Equally obviously, if you want to get that into it, you need to know what your bullet hardness actually is. Best affordable hardness tester I am aware of (and one I use):
http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/lbt/hardness_tester.htm

I am presently using pistol powders with cast bullets in .308 & .303 I just don't know how hard they are as these were purchased commercially.
Click to expand...
See above...

According to what I've been reading over the net, is to use 1:10 tin with WW. This sounds like a lot of tin, is this correct?
Click to expand...
I have no idea why anyone would do that. In .308 & 303, wheelweights have more than enough tin and arsenic content for both sharp mould fillout and for heat treating. I have never added solder or chilled shot to wheelweights although I have heard of a few guys who add chilled shot to some wheelweight because they feel it is a little soft. Some are trying to push wheelweight up to Lyman #2, but whatever.

I do add solder to pure lead because I aim for 30:1 for use in the big black powder boomers. Sole purpose of the tin is to help with fillout of those great big cavities with all those bands.

You can heat treat bullets to increase the BHN if you wish. You can drop them in water right out of the mould, but you don't have the same precision over the results. If you heat treat them in your oven for half an hour at temps between 420 and 450 (450 being very close to slump temperature), you can control hardness:
  • 410 degrees will give ~12 BHN
  • 420 degrees will give ~ 15 BHN
  • 430 degrees will give~ 17 BHN
  • 440 degrees will give ~ 23 BHN
  • 450 degrees will give ~ 29 BHN
Linotype has a hardness around 22 BHN, incidentally...

I think the biggest factor in performance is getting the bullet well fitted to the throat/ball seate. I'd worry about that before I worried about anything else. Slug your throat/ball seat, measure it, and then go from there. Don't worry about what the barrel measures - once the bullet gets there, it will squeeze down to barrel size. The important stuff happens before that.

311299 and 314299 are two well tested moulds, depending on how your slugs measure out. Personally, I've never had a problem with finding suitable moulds for the .303.
 
The bullets that are not shooting well in the .308 may well be Chambers/311332 which are good in my .308, other good moulds to try are 311299 and even better Saeco #315, this bullet has far more grooves and looks like a Loverin design with truncated cone pt.
 
Yes, the bullets that are not shooting well in my .308 are Chambers. I want to try 150gr bullets, quite a bit lighter from the 185gr. For some reason, I was told not too use anything heavier than 165gr in the .308 something to do with the fact that a heavier bullet will not stabilize. I don't know how true this is but I have no way of finding out. I was shooting 125gr & 165gr PSPCL out of this rifle with way better accuracy than I expected, .75" at 100 yards. I don't expect real great accuracy from a cast bullet but I would like to see at least a 3" group at 100 yards, less would be better. With the 185 TCGC bullets I had a hard time keeping them on an 81/2" x 11" target at 100 yards. Obviously, I still did not try the right powder. Tough to do when you live 100 miles from the gun shop.
 
Cast in 308

glen: I don't buy the weight limitation suggested to you for use in 308's. My preference for all 30 cal rifles is a bullet that weighs 195 grains. It does stabilize in 30-30's, 300 Savages , 308 Win., 30-06's whether 1/10 or 1/12 twist. I have not tried it in a 308 that was barreled 1/14 for the old military match 146/7 grain boattails but as a 32 special will also stabilize a similar weight of bullet from a 1/16 twist my guess is that it would at least to the 100 yard mark. If your accuracy was that bad I suggest to look at bullet diameter compared to a slugged bore, and also at your choice and volume of powder. If you try to push them faster than the limits of the alloy it can be pretty dismal. Also, how were the bullets lubed? If the lube was simply a liquid Alox lube you can run into problems there when speed is up a bit.
 
stocker,
I was using pistol powders as per Lymans' 48th manual. All loads listed were below 2000 fps although I have no chrony to prove this. I did not cast these bullets myself, they were purchased commercially. They were sized to .309 & well lubed, sort of sticky to the touch. I was just wondering if the bullet hardness had anything to do with the poor accuracy. This is another reason I want to cast my own, at least I can make them as hard or as soft as I see fit. Being a newbie to cast bullets in rifles, I'm sure it will take quite some time before I can get the right mix for each rifle & most importantly, an accurate load. I do enjoy reloading & shooting so I am looking forward to casting my own projectiles. :)
 
Glenliz: don't be disappointed, what works in one gun may not work in another, try varying your seating depth, try seating them out as far as possible, try diff. dia., diff. designs, diff. powders, even the primer can make a big diff. with cast bullets in small bores(like the .308) , if the bullet is .309 try .310 or even .311, try them in a diff. gun, even a .303, thats the beauty of using cast bullets, there is no end to the variations you can try to shrink groups....many like 31041 bullet, but I can't get it to shoot at all in my .308. The chambers bullets in those cals. are very hard cast, in the order of bhn20, I think you just have to hit the right combo!! One other point...if the barrel has, in the past, had only jacketed put through it, you must clean all the jacketed(copper) mat'l. from the barrel first!(no small chore) as there may be years of build up! Most of my barrels have never had a jacketed bullet through them.
 
Glen; As you chose to say "under 2000" as opposed to saying under 1900, or 1800, 1700, etc. my guess that you were running them a bit too fast for their hardness or lubrication. When I work up loads with cast I usually start quite low ie: 1400-1500 and work up looking to find the best accurate result and finally the break point where accuracy declines. Then you know specifically what the velocity limit approximates for a given powder, alloy, barrel etc. When you start too high and get a huge pattern you have only learned it doesn't work in the worst case scenario with none of the incremental learning steps. As you mentioned using pistol powders don't overlook 2400. I rarely use pistol powders any more. I have much better results developing loads with slower burning powders when I want to step up the velocity into the low 2000 range. It is a delicate balancing act getting cast bullets to perform when you start to "push" them but it can be done and with experience you can usually find the right combination fairly quickly. With a couple of exceptions my best hunting loads are all in the low to mid 1900's and once you try to go beyond that everything has to be just right.

I'm still curious about the lubrication. Were they slightly sticky all over with no distinct and separate filling of the lubrication grooves? Or, was the lubrication confined to the grooves in distinct rings? The former would lead me to think something like Lee Liquid Alox was the lube, the latter a proper stick lube applied during sizing.

And, as Ben mentioned copper removal from the bore is a must to avoid leading and get the best accuracy.
 
That is very helpful info all of you are providing, especially to someone who has never cast before, thank you. So far, I will tell you what I've done. For the .308 I have loaded according to the manual using 185gr TCGC & 187gr SPGC bullets. 10.5 - 14.5grs Unique in .5gr increments. The velocity listed with this powder is 1614 fps,(however this was going by a 190gr cast bullet since the manual never listed 185 or 187) I found these charges way too light for 100 yards but ok for 50. 11.5 - 14.5grs SR4756 in .5gr increments. The velocity listed with this powder is 1531 fps. Again, way too light for 100 yards, but ok for 50. What I did next was boost up the powder charge by a few grains in .5 increments for each powder. These loads had the bullets hitting the 100 yard target, not every time but at least they were in the area that I wanted them to go. These loads were OVER MAX according to the manual so I proceded with caution. There were no signs of pressure at all & still hardly any recoil. I just could not get the bullets to group. I have Universal, 2400 & Titegroup that I have yet to try to see what happens.

stocker,
The bullet grooves were filled with a blue lube as well as a sort of sticky lube over the entire bullet. As for my bore, it had severe copper fouling when I bought it. I cleaned it over & over many times. I used a bronze brush & about 5 square yards of cleaning patches cut to about 2"x 2" before it started to come clean. I have tried commercial gun cleaning solvent & the patches were coming through clean just after a few passes. I mixed some Ed's Red bore cleaner & the patches were coming out dirty again. IMO, Ed's Red is an excellent bore cleaner & does not harm the the finish on your firearm. It took me most of the day but I believe I got this gun clean. The bore is mirror bright.

Ben Hunchak,
I will not get disappointed that easily.:) I agree when you say what works in one gun may not work in another. I had this happen with pistols of the same caliber. I will try what you suggested such as diff seating depths, designs, powders & I might even try magnum primers.
 
Bore cleaning

Glen: I use Ed's red myself but it is not really a copper remover. It shines as a nitro (powder) solvent and also in shotguns to remove plastic wad residue. You want to use a copper solvent and none are easier to use than Wipe Out. Do not use a bronze brush when using copper solvents as bronze contains copper and the solvent will act on the brush and you will continually get a blue coloration to your patches from the brush. Use a nylon brush instead. At any rate if you can see any copper coloration on the bore near the muzzle you will know it's there. If you can't then maybe it never had much to begin with or you plain wore it away with all your efforts which seems plausible given the number of patches and amount of brushing you used.

Ed's red doesn't harm metal gun finishes but if you have the mix with acetone in it it can damage some wood finishes if left on the wood.

Your lube on the bullets sounds like it should have been O.K. so perhaps your rifle doesn't like the profile or the size of the bullet.

When you get to the lower velocity levels you have to expect some major sight adjustment changes. A lot of 200 yard cast bullet competitions of 100 years ago used loads slower than what you are reporting and the groups were competitive with many of todays rifles . Unless you were detecting key holing on the target you only had a sight adjustment problem not a velocity problem.
 
Lots of good info here.
I just want to add, that wheelwights can be used all by themselves, and make good bullets.
You just need to get the melt, and the mould a little warmer to get the mould to fill out properly.
Straight wheelweight if air cooled will run about BHN 17 or so. Drop them in water, and you should get upwards of BHN 22.
The 308 will have to be held to about 30-30 velocities, or leading, and poor groups will result. same for the 303, or anything else that gets much over 21-2200fps.
Best groups will likely be considerably slower, like 1800fps to 1900 or so. Use gas checks for those fast loads!
 
great thread on the go here
this is one area of reloading ,that ive yet to try........but i have a an urge to give it a go.....
any tips on home made gadgets..such as melting pots or what ever is needed?
 
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