CC which one 45acp,40 s&w or 9mm?
- Thread starter Woodbeef
- Start date
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
The inherent accuracy of the pistol is unimportant, whereas the ease with which the pistol can be shot accurately is very important. Power is less important than controllability, as the need for rapid follow up shots can occur or a multiple target problem might be encountered, thus a .45 auto trumps a .44 magnum. Reliability trumps all other concerns. The pistol must be sufficiently compact that it can be carried with ease in a concealed manner, but a small pistol is less controllable than a large pistol. The stock of the pistol must be of a size and shape that encourages a proper and natural grip when grasped in a hurry. The controls on the pistol must be convenient and easy to reach and use. The trigger must be manageable and the sights visible without being obtrusive. The pistol must be free of things that might snag on clothing or holsters, and must be free of sharp edges that can cut your hands. If a backup pistol is carried, consider one of the same caliber that uses the same magazines as your primary. The over riding reason to carry a back up is that it is faster to draw and fire the backup than it is to recognize the nature of a stoppage, resolve it, reload, then finally fire.
If your friend has years of shooting experience, he likely has an opinion on the subject. He should use what he is used to, within the parameters of tactical necessity. For his experience a M-10 S&W might be a better choice than a 1911 or a P-35 might be a better option than a Glock.
If your friend has years of shooting experience, he likely has an opinion on the subject. He should use what he is used to, within the parameters of tactical necessity. For his experience a M-10 S&W might be a better choice than a 1911 or a P-35 might be a better option than a Glock.
Ask anyone who's carried for any length of time and they'll tell you that anything that you'd want to shoot regularly is too heavy to carry. Carry guns are meant to be carried a lot, and shot very little, so go small! A .380 or a compact 9 with a premium defence round would be my choice.
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Larger calibres have the edge in terms of wound cavity and performance through intermediate barriers, but any of the standard calibres will work given good ammunition. Choose a platform that works for you and let that dictate your choice of calibre. Consider 9mm for auto pistols and .38 Special for revolvers as prudent minimums.
Ok, with that info, I'd pick a small frame 9mm. If you hit what you're shooting at, it's all you really need.
Some would say go with a small frame .40 or .45, but if your buddy is CC all day in a suit, a lightweight high-cap pistol is the way to go IMHO.
Frankly you are asking this in the worst possible place...99.9% of CGN members have never carried concealed and are therefore guessing about the caliber, the ammo, the gun, and the holster...
And of those who have, how many have shot even one person? And what is a sample size of one worth? So how many people here have both carried regularly, and shot a statistically significant number of people with enough different guns to give you good advice?
Dr. Gary Roberts, who is one of the world's leading authorities on terminal ballistics, recommends 9mm to people in no-cap-laws states. He lives in California, I believe, and carries a 1911. In .45acp, naturally.
Everything I have ever read by him says "there is no significant difference between the major service calibers."
And of those who have, how many have shot even one person? And what is a sample size of one worth? So how many people here have both carried regularly, and shot a statistically significant number of people with enough different guns to give you good advice?
Dr. Gary Roberts, who is one of the world's leading authorities on terminal ballistics, recommends 9mm to people in no-cap-laws states. He lives in California, I believe, and carries a 1911. In .45acp, naturally.
Everything I have ever read by him says "there is no significant difference between the major service calibers."
joseaventurero
Regular
- Location
- now in pickering ontario
carry
I do carry back home because I have to, so beretta 84 fs with 13+ 3.80 jhp will stop any man or a m-10 smith&wesson with +p ammo they are small and not so heavy, try to carry a big 1911 in the street's of venezuela and in no time anibody will know you carry a canon under your shirt you are dead
I do carry back home because I have to, so beretta 84 fs with 13+ 3.80 jhp will stop any man or a m-10 smith&wesson with +p ammo they are small and not so heavy, try to carry a big 1911 in the street's of venezuela and in no time anibody will know you carry a canon under your shirt you are dead
He is backed up by dozens of Ballistics Gel tests and numerous experts. The real world differences if any between 9mm .40 and .45 are very negligible despite what various Kool-Aid drinkers spew about supposed benefits of terminal performance about their particular favourite.
More info here:
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19914
Listen to DocGKR (Dr. Gary Roberts), he knows what he's talking about.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19914
Listen to DocGKR (Dr. Gary Roberts), he knows what he's talking about.
I am talking service calibres/loads
. Speed is what sets cartridges apart. 10mm has no lack of speed especially in the lighter weights.My 135s run just under 1800fps out of a little 4.6" barrel. I may as well carry an M-1 Carbine. Assuming I could carry at all up here. I may have drank some Kool-Aid... Really though you can beat the old 9/40/45 debate as much as you want the real experts will still say the same.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
A bullet wound is more severe when the bullet is supersonic, provided the shape of the bullet is such that it optimizes the shock wave that precedes and envelops it though the target. The supersonic shock-wave though is only useful for increasing the wound volume through soft tissue, a large bone will only reflect the frontal diameter of an expanding bullet, or the full caliber diameter of a non-expanding bullet. But whether 1800 fps has a significant advantage over 1200 fps I doubt provided through and through penetration occurs in both cases. I shoot cast bullets at both velocities from center fire rifles, and there is little terminal difference on live targets. I will concede that while the velocity of the faster bullet can make up for the mass of a heavier bullet, I have never seen evidence that it can exceed it. Well, that's not entirely true, as bullet impacts of 4000 fps result in incredible soft tissue carnage, so yes velocity makes a difference if you can get enough of it. There are two problems here. The first is that soft tissue damage cannot be relied on to stop a determined antagonist, and the second is that pistol cartridges can't produce enough velocity, and attempts to increase that velocity in any meaningful way reduces the controllability of the pistol, particularly when shooting from an unnatural position. Noise is another often over looked consideration. Your actions are reactive in nature, so you will have no opportunity to put on hearing protection. I can only imagine what it might sound like to fire a hot 10mm from inside the confines of a vehicle, an elevator, or a small rest room. While your gun might have more terminal performance, your ability to use that advantage will be degraded by the mind numbing muzzle blast of your first round, and if you have to shoot your man more than once or solve a multiple target problem, you might not prevail. A better solution is to choose heavy for caliber bullets to reduce the powder charge and thus the blast signature of the cartridge.
It is interesting that people who have a reasonable idea of the mechanics pertaining to the terminal effects of a rifle bullet on game suddenly get dumb about the effects of a pistol bullet on a 200 pound target. The only difference between Bambi and the Troll-That-Lives-Under-The-Bridge is that the goblin tends to be a vertical target while Bambi tends to be a horizontal target. The plumbing that supports life is essentially the same in either target, and if a bullet passes through either plumbing system, blood flow to the brain is impacted and the ability to sustain life is compromised. Once hit, if Bambi makes a hard run, that is no big deal to the hunter, who can easily track the spoor to his prize. Conversely, we do need to be concerned about what the goblin is capable of once we've hit him. The fact that we shot (at) the goblin in the first place emphasizes that our need to change his behavior was great, and if shooting has not diminished our peril, we will die. The idea that a goblin hit by pistol fire under realistic shoot or die conditions, will simply roll over and quit is beyond optimistic in a day and age when drugs can blank out pain or any thought of self preservation.
If we begin with the premise that a solid unprotected upper torso hit by a 12 ga slug will stop anyone and work backwards from there, we see that all service pistol bullets are lacking, however the frontal area of the bullet is the single most important ingredient to the size of the wound channel, as the velocity bracket of pistol rounds is quite narrow compared to rifle cartridges. There is nothing we can do to increase the velocity envelope of the bullet while keeping the gun manageable, there is little we can do to improve the expansion qualities of the bullet if we require it to punch through a windshield, dry wall, or a garbage can and still produce a behavior altering blow to our antagonist, particularly if your shot needs to break the pelvis. Again, the soft tissue damage possible from a pistol bullet is seldom sufficient to accomplish immediate incapacitation, which is the goal of the exercise, but regardless of that, you can only shoot at what you can see, and if your man makes it to cover,there might not be much to shoot at. If I were to carry on the street, I would choose a bullet similar to the one I carry in the bush. My bullet in the bush is a 325 gr hard cast WFN loaded to 1200 fps in a short .44 magnum, which produces a reasonable wound volume without giving up the controllability I need for a fast follow up shot. My other ATC gun is a M-27 .357 magnum with a 195 gr hardcast SWC at 1150, which again is controllable, penetrates very well, and isn't as hard on the ears as other .357 loads. On the street, my first choice is a full size 1911 .45 loaded with 230 gr truncated cone bullets. Yes I am long enough to conceal it in a proper rig. No, it isn't supersonic, but it is controllable, easier on the ears than some, it produces an acceptable wound channel, and it will break a large bone if that shot is presented.
In any street level human conflict, if there is a safe way to remove yourself from the situation, that will always be the first and best choice. But if violence comes to you and you are unable to avoid it, your best chance of survival is though training and the more realistic your training is, the better prepared you will be. Your brain is your greatest asset, not your pistol.
It is interesting that people who have a reasonable idea of the mechanics pertaining to the terminal effects of a rifle bullet on game suddenly get dumb about the effects of a pistol bullet on a 200 pound target. The only difference between Bambi and the Troll-That-Lives-Under-The-Bridge is that the goblin tends to be a vertical target while Bambi tends to be a horizontal target. The plumbing that supports life is essentially the same in either target, and if a bullet passes through either plumbing system, blood flow to the brain is impacted and the ability to sustain life is compromised. Once hit, if Bambi makes a hard run, that is no big deal to the hunter, who can easily track the spoor to his prize. Conversely, we do need to be concerned about what the goblin is capable of once we've hit him. The fact that we shot (at) the goblin in the first place emphasizes that our need to change his behavior was great, and if shooting has not diminished our peril, we will die. The idea that a goblin hit by pistol fire under realistic shoot or die conditions, will simply roll over and quit is beyond optimistic in a day and age when drugs can blank out pain or any thought of self preservation.
If we begin with the premise that a solid unprotected upper torso hit by a 12 ga slug will stop anyone and work backwards from there, we see that all service pistol bullets are lacking, however the frontal area of the bullet is the single most important ingredient to the size of the wound channel, as the velocity bracket of pistol rounds is quite narrow compared to rifle cartridges. There is nothing we can do to increase the velocity envelope of the bullet while keeping the gun manageable, there is little we can do to improve the expansion qualities of the bullet if we require it to punch through a windshield, dry wall, or a garbage can and still produce a behavior altering blow to our antagonist, particularly if your shot needs to break the pelvis. Again, the soft tissue damage possible from a pistol bullet is seldom sufficient to accomplish immediate incapacitation, which is the goal of the exercise, but regardless of that, you can only shoot at what you can see, and if your man makes it to cover,there might not be much to shoot at. If I were to carry on the street, I would choose a bullet similar to the one I carry in the bush. My bullet in the bush is a 325 gr hard cast WFN loaded to 1200 fps in a short .44 magnum, which produces a reasonable wound volume without giving up the controllability I need for a fast follow up shot. My other ATC gun is a M-27 .357 magnum with a 195 gr hardcast SWC at 1150, which again is controllable, penetrates very well, and isn't as hard on the ears as other .357 loads. On the street, my first choice is a full size 1911 .45 loaded with 230 gr truncated cone bullets. Yes I am long enough to conceal it in a proper rig. No, it isn't supersonic, but it is controllable, easier on the ears than some, it produces an acceptable wound channel, and it will break a large bone if that shot is presented.
In any street level human conflict, if there is a safe way to remove yourself from the situation, that will always be the first and best choice. But if violence comes to you and you are unable to avoid it, your best chance of survival is though training and the more realistic your training is, the better prepared you will be. Your brain is your greatest asset, not your pistol.
9mm or .40s&w in fairly compact gun with 12-14rds mag capacity, oherwise it'll be too heavy and bulky daily carry. Choose the gun that's reliable, comfortable and safe to handle and shoot and the one you shoot good with... Spare mag or two.
One can have more than one carry gun, and use the one that suites the environment you carry in; e.g. city, country, outdoors/camping.
One can have more than one carry gun, and use the one that suites the environment you carry in; e.g. city, country, outdoors/camping.
Now days down south they are seening a re-aperance of the old 380 Auto for C.C. but if it was for me nothing is better than a 45 ACP for personal protection. Although if I had to choose something I had to lug around all day deffenatly it would be a 9mm.
joseaventurero
Regular
- Location
- now in pickering ontario
small
A friend back home, own a gun shop his best selling firearms are g19,26,27,30 and the beretta px4 due to their size,
A friend back home, own a gun shop his best selling firearms are g19,26,27,30 and the beretta px4 due to their size,
32acp!
We're not likely to encounter those crazy Phillipino tribesmen. Most attackers will flee the moment you pull the gun. Plus it fits in your sock!
I don't know what kind of socks you wear but I don't think my socks can support a pistol
tactical870
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Buckhorn, Ontario
I've already put myself through this train of thought. If I needed to rely on a gun to save my life would I be comfortable with a 9 mm or 40? They are much more concealable but the 9mm is lacking in power and subsequently many US police forces are going back to 40 or 45. The .40 is concealable and has much more stopping power but recoils hard and is tricky to shoot accurately. A 45 ACP hits hard leaving a substancial wound tract, carries a large enough bullet to penetrate heavy clothing and still cause massive damage and is much easier to handle than a .40. Also, the single stack pistols are quite concealable. I choose to shoot and practice regularly with a .45 for this reason.
