Here read this..... from someone who's used the .45ACP in actual gunfights.
http://www.chucktaylorasaa.com/stoppingpower.html
Apparently there's nothing wrong with .45ACP hardball as a 'man stopper'.
CCW in theory: Big and slow vs light and fast?
- Thread starter mr00jimbo
- Start date
Here read this..... from someone who's used the .45ACP in actual gunfights.
http://www.chucktaylorasaa.com/stoppingpower.html
Apparently there's nothing wrong with .45ACP hardball as a 'man stopper'.
Here read this..... from someone who's used the .45ACP in actual gunfights.
http://www.chucktaylorasaa.com/stoppingpower.html
Apparently there's nothing wrong with .45ACP hardball as a 'man stopper'.
Yes, I've read that before and it all makes sense.
I was just trying to make the point that light and fast can cause more tissue damage.
.45 ACP is a great cartridge, no doubt about it.
.45ACP is a lower-pressure cartridge, so (IMHO) it'll never really compare to 10mm. Don't get me wrong, I like .45ACP, and own a couple 1911s in this caliber.
However, .45super is scary - high-pressure, like 10mm... it can throw a big (say 180grain or bigger) bullet at crazy velocities, if loaded hot. I'd like to see some stats comparing energy and muzzle velocity between .45 super and 10mm
However, .45super is scary - high-pressure, like 10mm... it can throw a big (say 180grain or bigger) bullet at crazy velocities, if loaded hot. I'd like to see some stats comparing energy and muzzle velocity between .45 super and 10mm
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Here is how I formed my opinion... I didn't....
I looked at the people who had the most experienced, were not sponsored, and had the capability to carry whatever they wanted, and were experienced/renown in the firearms /LE/SF community.
You ever look at all the high end PSD teams in Iraq, the guys that teach SF teams, and basically anyone who fight for a living? A huge percentage all carry Glocks in 9mm. Im not talking who they do ads for, or reviews of. I mean what do they carry when you are out for dinner...
Sure, 1911's are pretty, but even Paul Howe, who is a Delta operator is supposed to be carrying a "special black ops 1911" shoots Glock. Eg: All instructor-candidates at the Paul Howe instructor class in March this year were running Glocks, including Howe.
Same thing with people who preach weaver and carry 1911's. Tied to the myth, not to the data and facts. Eg: "Why is it that Vickers, Hackathorn, Holschen, Howe....all with rich ties to special operations communities, all use and teach modern isoc?" Because it works in Combat I guess....
Guys like Holchen, Hamilton, Howe... All carrying and teaching with glocks... Holschen, Howe and Hamilton have more than 60 plus years of combined SF, Combat, and SF Instructional Experience.
You can do what you want, and trust random people on the internet, or just do a little research and look at the facts and data. What do people who fight for a living use? Why?
Here is some good fair "opinion" that explains the reasons for using a Glock over an M&P for example from Larry Vickers" Use this to decide on your priorities then find a gun that meets them.
Another wise thing I heard recently to pass on to others is "spend less on the shiny gun and gadgets and spend more on training and ammo..."
"1) IMO the Glock 19 and 17 are the best Glock's made - both are excellent pistols - I own, use, and recommend both
2) I do not recommend the G22, G23, or G21 - based on my experience these pistols have problems (breakage, won't function with rail mounted lights, etc.) and I feel there are better choices in 40 and 45
3) Glocks as a rule are not as accurate as many other service pistols - partly due to the enlarged chamber - this can be fixed with aftermarket barrels
4) I recommend 3 things for a Glock 19 or 17; good sights (Heinie, Novak, 10-8and Warren are my current favorites) , a buttplug to keep debris out of the trigger mech (cheap insurance), and my mag catch made by Tangodown. Optional but highly recommended is frame texturing by Dave Bowie (I like the finger grooves removed also)
5) They are incredibly forgiving in maintenance and lubrication - amazing
6) Incredibly simple to operate - 2 levers/buttons and 1 is optional
7) Always remember the golden rule with a Glock; keep your finger OFF the trigger until you are ready to shoot - if you don't adhere to this expect a loud noise at some point
Bottom line Glocks in 9mm are excellent pistols - they are not my first choice in other calibers however - the S&W M&P has been called a product improved Glock ; this may be true but the verdict is still out as the M&P is a relatively new handgun vs millions of Glock's in service (mostly in 9mm I might add) and S&W has a spotty record in terms of autoloading pistols - time will tell
hope this helps
Larry Vickers"
So, I don't have an opinion, I will trust the data and experienced shooters until my experience proves otherwise. Millions of rounds don't lie I figure...
y
I looked at the people who had the most experienced, were not sponsored, and had the capability to carry whatever they wanted, and were experienced/renown in the firearms /LE/SF community.
You ever look at all the high end PSD teams in Iraq, the guys that teach SF teams, and basically anyone who fight for a living? A huge percentage all carry Glocks in 9mm. Im not talking who they do ads for, or reviews of. I mean what do they carry when you are out for dinner...
Sure, 1911's are pretty, but even Paul Howe, who is a Delta operator is supposed to be carrying a "special black ops 1911" shoots Glock. Eg: All instructor-candidates at the Paul Howe instructor class in March this year were running Glocks, including Howe.
Same thing with people who preach weaver and carry 1911's. Tied to the myth, not to the data and facts. Eg: "Why is it that Vickers, Hackathorn, Holschen, Howe....all with rich ties to special operations communities, all use and teach modern isoc?" Because it works in Combat I guess....
Guys like Holchen, Hamilton, Howe... All carrying and teaching with glocks... Holschen, Howe and Hamilton have more than 60 plus years of combined SF, Combat, and SF Instructional Experience.
You can do what you want, and trust random people on the internet, or just do a little research and look at the facts and data. What do people who fight for a living use? Why?
Here is some good fair "opinion" that explains the reasons for using a Glock over an M&P for example from Larry Vickers" Use this to decide on your priorities then find a gun that meets them.
Another wise thing I heard recently to pass on to others is "spend less on the shiny gun and gadgets and spend more on training and ammo..."
"1) IMO the Glock 19 and 17 are the best Glock's made - both are excellent pistols - I own, use, and recommend both
2) I do not recommend the G22, G23, or G21 - based on my experience these pistols have problems (breakage, won't function with rail mounted lights, etc.) and I feel there are better choices in 40 and 45
3) Glocks as a rule are not as accurate as many other service pistols - partly due to the enlarged chamber - this can be fixed with aftermarket barrels
4) I recommend 3 things for a Glock 19 or 17; good sights (Heinie, Novak, 10-8and Warren are my current favorites) , a buttplug to keep debris out of the trigger mech (cheap insurance), and my mag catch made by Tangodown. Optional but highly recommended is frame texturing by Dave Bowie (I like the finger grooves removed also)
5) They are incredibly forgiving in maintenance and lubrication - amazing
6) Incredibly simple to operate - 2 levers/buttons and 1 is optional
7) Always remember the golden rule with a Glock; keep your finger OFF the trigger until you are ready to shoot - if you don't adhere to this expect a loud noise at some point
Bottom line Glocks in 9mm are excellent pistols - they are not my first choice in other calibers however - the S&W M&P has been called a product improved Glock ; this may be true but the verdict is still out as the M&P is a relatively new handgun vs millions of Glock's in service (mostly in 9mm I might add) and S&W has a spotty record in terms of autoloading pistols - time will tell
hope this helps
Larry Vickers"
So, I don't have an opinion, I will trust the data and experienced shooters until my experience proves otherwise. Millions of rounds don't lie I figure...
y
If one round of 230 grain FMJ .45ACP ball ammo is able to "stop a threat" [the actual point of a cartridge for "self defense" purposes] then the amount of "damage" that a "faster" ctg is able to do is, IMHO, irrelevant...
When I voted slow and fat I had the .45ACP in mind - subsonic, excellent stopping power, and not too much risk of over penetration. The .38Special would also fit the bill, albeit with less stopping power, but I wouldn't want to carry a revolver - too slow and bulky.
The point is that if you believe "10mm is the best of both worlds", then something throwing bigger bullets even faster must be even better, right? Unless you've decided that "the best of both worlds" arbitrarily ends with the 10mm where speed and projectile size are concerned.Just wtf are you talking about? I said 10mm is the best of both worlds nothing about elephants. I also didn't say anything against 9mm. A big
The comment about "we're not hunting elephants here" is that .38 Spl, 9mm, 40 S&W, .45 ACP, etc have proven to be very reliable for self defense with the modern ammunition we have today on human threats. If they were inadequate, the people who don't post on these forums but who fight with handguns as their profession i.e. JTF2, CSOR, etc would choose your 10mm or at least something with more thump - and they don't even have to carry concealed. For their specialized missions and numbers, they don't have the logistical issues that conventional units have.
If you can make good COM hits with a concealable 10mm, 44 Magnum, etc as fast as you can do it with a 9mm or 40 S&W, then all the power to you. Most people - especially those who don't live on the range - can't say that. And because they're dealing with human threats rather than something bigger, 9mm's, 40 S&W, etc do just fine, giving them a platform that is both reliable in performance and controllable for rapid defensive fire. I know I can't get back on target fast enough to get good hits shooting quickly with either a snubby .44 Magnum or Glock 29 like I can with a 40 S&W, 9mm, etc. I think that is the same results most people have.
Some people theorize about what they would carry with a CCW license, and other people do carry with a CCW license. I do carry - legally - about half the time. My position is to not worry about what will give me the maximum power in a concealable firearm and instead concentrate on using a proven caliber that I can shoot quickly and accurately. In my case, that means something in the .38 Spl/9mm/40 S&W, etc persuasion, and I suppose, .45 ACP as well. For those who can shoot a 10mm/.44 Mag, etc just as fast and accurately, well then, you are ahead of the game. For others who think the slower time in getting back on target isn't that big of a deal, you may well be right.
The beauty of it is that if you DO carry concealed, ultimately, the bottom line is that it is your ass you're betting your judgement and opinions on, nobody else's. So if you ever do have to actually use a handgun in self defense, at that moment whatever everybody else thinks is moot and it will be just you and the test of your choices.
Oh... there's nothing flawed about the .45 ACP. It was designed as a relatively low pressure cartridge, but some case changes can address all of that.
Gatehouse mentioned his .45-08, which is a .45 ACP with cases made from rifle brass, some spring changes, and a buffer. So you can have 200 grain .45 bullets at about 1450 fps, 250 gr. bullets at about 1150 fps, etc. I don't know what standard load ARMco is recommending these days for his pistols (see his link above) - but it is pretty obvious you aren't going to get those kind of ballistics out of a 10mm, if you want to know if a .45 ACP can compete.
Both of them far exceed the baseline for reliable defensive power, which should be really encouraging for those who can shoot them as well as the common herd can shoot the calibers police and military use. But you won't find them in the very small concealable pistols like the Kahr's, for example.
We may disagree with each other on a lot of things, but we always seem to agree on what it takes to stop bad guys...
Hits...That's what it takes to take down the bad guys. Expansion, fragmentation, penetration is all ignorant discussion and irrelevant. Only hits count and hits are all I'm concerned about. The rest is up to science.
TDC
Where are you getting your information from? You making this stuff up or do you have a documented source?
I did extensive terminal ballistics testing and repeatedly had results virtually the opposite of what you are claiming.
What I found is the very high velocity 9mm's tended to fragment on impact which reduced their penetration.
The 147gr JHP's performed the best with the best combination of both expansion and penetration. I tested about a dozen different makes and types of 147gr JHP and they probably averaged 0.62" expansion.
The big 45 JHP's open up much bigger but that reduced their ability to penetrate.
I never had issues with subsonic bullets expanding.
Thats not what I found. It was more the construction of the bullet that affected its ability to expand with a plugged hollow point. The Golden Sabre opens up no matter what you shoot it though. Something like the Hydrashock was very seriously impacted by having its cavity plugged up.
And I have several Black Talons that expanded perfectly. So what?
Even if a hollow point does get plugged and prevents complete expansion, the bullet still expands somewhat, (to about .55" or so) making it a heck of a lot better than a non-expanding truncated cone which never gets bigger than .355".
Your comment is kind of silly. If you are shooting someone in the head do you think it is necessary to blow it clean off vs putting a hole through it? Either way the guy is DEAD! You have clearly not though this out at all, nor do you even understand the question you are asking.
I tried some very high velocity 357 Mag 110gr JSP in my ballistics testing and discovered that they tend to "explode" on the surface without much penetration. Do they do a lot of damage? Sure, the wound would be horrible but it would be shallow so if the guy is standing side on to you and the bullet hits his arm, you will be doing no damage to his important organs.
Where a .45 ball round would punch a nice tidy hole through the arm, the chest cavity and the lungs and potentially the heart.
So which one did more damage? The big ragged, bloody hole through his arm or the neat pencil hole through his lungs and heart?
I was down in the US recently and everyone I met who was actually carrying had one of those micro sized 9mm Kahr's because they offer a decent level of firepower in the smallest package.
Carrying a gun is uncomfortable and a PIA (literally) so they tend to go for as much comfort as possible. The people on this board who advocate the biggest most powerful hand cannon made have clearly never actually carried a gun all day, day after day.
Carrying a gun is uncomfortable and a PIA (literally) so they tend to go for as much comfort as possible. The people on this board who advocate the biggest most powerful hand cannon made have clearly never actually carried a gun all day, day after day.
In all honesty I couldn't see myself carrying my G20 around. Having a gun anywhere on your body for extended periods of time is annoying IMO. In reality I would probably go with something like the Kahr, or something small in .380. It doesn't change my opinion that 10mm is the SD cartridge best suited to me, but that opinion will likely never change.
joseaventurero
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ahh
Iam a south american, and we do carry for self defence, and personally y do carry a beretta 380 with 13 jhp on and a little .38 5 shots in my uncle reason for a 380 and a .38 the most important thing in a nasty situation will be shots placement not caliber i see with my own eyes, a guy shot 20 times with a 9mm in the abdomen and survive, and see people shot with a 22lr and not make it to the hospital one shot to the head, mi father owns a funeral home thats why i see thinks like that, to finish carry a big canon its a no no , because usually bad south american boys if they see you with a funny bulk they will attack you from behynd shot you o stab you so they can take that gun away. so the small the better.
Iam a south american, and we do carry for self defence, and personally y do carry a beretta 380 with 13 jhp on and a little .38 5 shots in my uncle reason for a 380 and a .38 the most important thing in a nasty situation will be shots placement not caliber i see with my own eyes, a guy shot 20 times with a 9mm in the abdomen and survive, and see people shot with a 22lr and not make it to the hospital one shot to the head, mi father owns a funeral home thats why i see thinks like that, to finish carry a big canon its a no no , because usually bad south american boys if they see you with a funny bulk they will attack you from behynd shot you o stab you so they can take that gun away. so the small the better.
