CCW in theory: Big and slow vs light and fast?

[Boomer]

Where are you getting your information from? You making this stuff up or do you have a documented source?

I did extensive terminal ballistics testing and repeatedly had results virtually the opposite of what you are claiming.

What I found is the very high velocity 9mm's tended to fragment on impact which reduced their penetration.

The 147gr JHP's performed the best with the best combination of both expansion and penetration. I tested about a dozen different makes and types of 147gr JHP and they probably averaged 0.62" expansion.

The big 45 JHP's open up much bigger but that reduced their ability to penetrate.

I never had issues with subsonic bullets expanding.


Thats not what I found. It was more the construction of the bullet that affected its ability to expand with a plugged hollow point. The Golden Sabre opens up no matter what you shoot it though. Something like the Hydrashock was very seriously impacted by having its cavity plugged up.


And I have several Black Talons that expanded perfectly. So what?


Even if a hollow point does get plugged and prevents complete expansion, the bullet still expands somewhat, (to about .55" or so) making it a heck of a lot better than a non-expanding truncated cone which never gets bigger than .355".

With respect to the lightweight 9mm fragmenting and resulting in a shallow wound we seem to agree. We also seem to agree that a 147 gr 9mm produces the best performance that can be expected from a pistol of that bore size. When expansion occurs I would of expected .53", you observed .62." OK, but I think if a bullet that short expands to .62" to little shank length is left to assure stable penetration.

The point I was making about the Black Talon that did not expand was that just because a bullet has a "never fails to expand" reputation doesn't necessarily make it so. If I recovered a BT that has not expanded, it’s not likely that it’s the one in a million bullet; I've never been that lucky. Interestingly enough, this bullet was not plugged by anything, it just didn't function. If it doesn't work every time, it is possible that it won't work when you need it to, after all if you find yourself in a gunfight things have already gone wrong.

If the hollow point functions properly great, if it doesn't the shape still results in a more effective wound than would a non-expanding round nose. This was the point I was attemting to make; I was not suggesting that a TC is superior to a HP that functions properly, rather it is equal to the TC if it does not.

Penetration through any given medium relates to several variables. The expanded bullet diameter retards penetration. If the bullet is supersonic at impact, a shockwave surrounds it and lessens the slowing effect of resistance by fluids and soft tissue which do not actually contact the bullet until it becomes trans-sonic. The momentum created by the velocity combined with the weight of the bullet effects penetration in that an increase in either weight or velocity will increase the depth of penetration. Precessional velocity at the point of impact results in deeper penetration when a higher rotational velocity overcomes the torque imposed on the bullet upon impact with the target. An expanded bullet’s shank length effects penetration in that a bullet needs to have a linear axis to rotate around in order to maintain stability as it passes through the target. Loss of stability results in loss of penetration.

When it comes to defensive pistol bullets the question does not need to be which bullet has the highest velocity, penetrates the deepest, or expands the largest. The question needs to be, which bullet is most likely to stop the action under the circumstances I am most likely to face. The question can be answered in a number of ways, but for a sub-caliber CCW sized firearm to be effective against a determined adversary, the use of an expanding bullet significantly increases the seriousness of the wound. The large caliber CCW sized firearm can stop a determined adversary without having to rely on an expanding bullet which may or maynot function.

 

[joseaventurero]

forget

most of my cousin's do carry glock 25 26 17 19 they are nice not heavy and confortable to carry even with no holster, one of then a lawyer was involve in a shooting with like 3 guys, they try to rob with him he use a glock 19 with fmj and they work quite well he its alive

 

[Suputin]

Iam a south american, and we do carry for self defence, and personally y do carry a beretta 380 ......... so the small the better.

Thank you.

 

[Suputin]

When expansion occurs I would of expected .53", you observed .62." OK, but I think if a bullet that short expands to .62" to little shank length is left to assure stable penetration.

All the 147gr JHP's I tested had lots of shank length left.

With respect to the Black Talon, that is not the bullet I'd choose for self defence. The one single bullet that expanded as reliably as clockwork, every single time I tried it was the Golden Sabre. The thing is a beast and reliable as hell.

When it comes to defensive pistol bullets the question does not need to be which bullet has the highest velocity, penetrates the deepest, or expands the largest. The question needs to be, which bullet is most likely to stop the action under the circumstances I am most likely to face.

I would argue that the bullet most likely to "stop the action" is in fact the bullet that expands the biggest AND penetrates the deepest. Both factors are important.

My testing showed that while the big 45 JHP's do expand impressively, their size reduces their penetration significantly. IMO the 147gr 9mm is a better choice because it expands almost as big as a 45 JHP (about 12% smaller) but it penetrates significantly better (about 32% further).

The truth is that bullet placement is far more important than what kind or size of bullet is used. As someone noted, a .22 in the side of the head can kill while several 9mm hits in the guts will not.

 

[Levi Garrett]

9 mm sucks as a combat round, 40 s&w works, and 45 ACP rocks baby

 

[Griffoneur]

Penetration kills.

Ahhhhhhhhh, I musta died at least 1000 times then.

Back to seriousness... I have carried both professionally and personally.

Summertime... small pistol is best .380ACP would be minimum.
Fall/winter any caliber will do the job, I prefer .40S&W, however a 9mm with self-defense rounds is more than adequate

Most gunfights use average of THREE rounds.
Most gunfights happen between 5 and 10 yards.

I love my model 29 with 6 1/2" barrel, but wearing that in summer requires a jacket to cover up. Carrying a boat anchor on your side in the long term, will eventually get you a trip to the chiropractors office.

The "cool factor" of CCW gets old after the first week. If I had a $1 for every time I got jabbed in the ribs when sitting down while wearing a pistol, I would be retried by now and living in a gun friendly country!

 

[Dragoon]

I've posted this before and I'll post it again......



THE KEYS TO SURVIVING LETHAL FORCE ENCOUNTERS

1. Cultivate a warrior mindset.

2. Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice.

3. Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system.

4. Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance.

 

[Rick]

Even if a hollow point does get plugged and prevents complete expansion, the bullet still expands somewhat, (to about .55" or so) making it a heck of a lot better than a non-expanding truncated cone which never gets bigger than .355".

My personal experience does not lead me to believe there is any definitive answer either way. I have done some inadvertent testing; namely, destroying deer, elk, and one bear hit along the road. Montana drivers seem to think that hitting wildlife on the highways is part of owning a driver's license...

I carried Barnes .40 S&W ammunition for a while and it was very effective. However, after a local guy got gnawed on by a bear and a cougar snatched a dog from a group of kids and dogs playing at a picnic just a few miles from here, I changed what I carry to orient more towards a wildlife threat:

That's a 200 gr. bullet that chronographs at just about 1100 fps. I went this way instead of a similar HP after talking with some wildlife guys armed with .40 S&W's while working up in Alaska.

These aren't 9mm, and obviously they're a WFN design, not a truncated cone. But they put deer sized game down with authority and leave wounds that gives me confidence should I ever be forced to use them in defense either on wildlife or on two-legged threats. In fact, their performance is more impressive than the Barnes loads, although there was nothing wrong with the Barnes loads I should point out.

I would point out that a lot of the revolver/pistol crowd who enjoy handgun hunting choose Keith type SWC loads or (increasingly these days) WFN designs over hollow points. Some no doubt out of personal prejudice/traditionalism. But a lot have simply come to the conclusion they get better results out of WFN designs than HP's. Hunting isn't self defense, of course, but given the range of weights and structure of deer, there is a fair similarity to the weight and structure of a human attacker.

I can't project what I've seen with the .40 to the 9mm or any other cartridge, but it is food for thought.

I was down in the US recently and everyone I met who was actually carrying had one of those micro sized 9mm Kahr's because they offer a decent level of firepower in the smallest package.

Carrying a gun is uncomfortable and a PIA (literally) so they tend to go for as much comfort as possible. The people on this board who advocate the biggest most powerful hand cannon made have clearly never actually carried a gun all day, day after day.

Looking at the members of the gun clubs I belong to down in Montana who carry, very few carry Kahr's or similarly sized micro packages. I am not sure why that is, as there are Kahr's for sale locally. The compact M&P's, XP's, and Glocks seem to get the nod with the revolver folks opting for the J frame Smiths. The odd guy has one of the tiny 1911 clones.

The rest carry service-size pistols: BHP's, XP's, Commander size 1911's, etc. Everyone seems happy with their choices.

If carrying a handgun is uncomfortable, then the person doing the carrying needs to rethink their holster choices and how they carry. I'll make an exception to that opinion for skinny dudes that are all skin and bones - I've never had that build but I have alternated between stocky/muscular and downright fat. I do believe that if you carry a micro pistol, your choices of belt and holster are much less critical.

I carry a full size BHP all day, every day I am down in the US, and I am down there almost as much as I am back up in Canada. A well designed and built tuckable IWB holster is not cheap, but you get what you pay for. A belt slide when cooler weather arrives that permits wearing a microfiber vest is better yet. I do not find even IWB uncomfortable - in fact, it is comfortable to the point that I do worry occasionally that I'll head for the border one day while forgetting to neuter myself first. I solve that by putting my passport in the safe where my firearms are locked up when I'm back up in Canada.

Others who carry concealed regularly may beg to differ on comfort levels. But after four years of carrying concealed almost half of every year, I am basing my opinions on a reasonable amount of personal opinion.

 

[Boomer]

All the 147gr JHP's I tested had lots of shank length left.

With respect to the Black Talon, that is not the bullet I'd choose for self defence. The one single bullet that expanded as reliably as clockwork, every single time I tried it was the Golden Sabre. The thing is a beast and reliable as hell.


I would argue that the bullet most likely to "stop the action" is in fact the bullet that expands the biggest AND penetrates the deepest. Both factors are important.

My testing showed that while the big 45 JHP's do expand impressively, their size reduces their penetration significantly. IMO the 147gr 9mm is a better choice because it expands almost as big as a 45 JHP (about 12% smaller) but it penetrates significantly better (about 32% further).

The truth is that bullet placement is far more important than what kind or size of bullet is used. As someone noted, a .22 in the side of the head can kill while several 9mm hits in the guts will not.

Now this is interesting. If we compare the 147 gr 9mm to the 185 gr .45 Golden Sabers, I can see that penetration would be similar if the expanded diameter was similar for both bullets, and velocity of both rounds should also be similar or might even favor the .45. The sub-sonic 230 gr .45 might not penetrate as well as a lighter super-sonic bullet with an equal sized frontal area as it is subject to resistance by fluid and soft tissue for a longer period of time, despite the fact that its greater weight should make up for the difference in velocity.

In my penetration testing with rifle bullets in wet medium, bullet weight always made up for velocity, and if expanding bullets were tested, the larger frontal areas of very heavy for caliber bullets did not prevent them from penetrating to an equal depth as lighter faster bullets of higher velocity. The wound cavity of the bullet that expanded the largest was several times that of the bullets with the smaller frontal areas, but super-sonic velocities in all cases played a role in the depth of penetration. With a handgun bullet, we would like to see sufficient penetration that the bullet exits the target, as an exit wound complicates the wound dramatically. We like to see 30" of penetration from an expanding rifle bullet on big game, but the defensive handgun bullet does well at a foot and a half. I have no faith in the ability of one of these bullets if the target was presented from the side and the bullet hit the hip or the point of the shoulder. I know my WFN 325 gr .44's at 1150 would punch through but I have my doubts about a light hollow point.

In the years since Gunshot Wounds by Legarde was written, little has changed with respect to defensive handgun bullet velocity, even if bullet technology has advanced. That book has illustrations of pictures and sketches taken from early X-rays of pistol and revolver bullets that impacted bone, caused a "butterfly" fracture and stopped in the surrounding musculature. Ranges typically were from contact close to 75 yards. Much can be learned about the effect of projectiles on the human body from that study. Interestingly enough, the .45 did not come out as the obvious winner for manstopping, rather the 388 gr .476 caliber New Service Colt loaded with 18 grs of black powder was deemed the best stopper and the next best was the 218 gr .455 loaded with 6.4 grs of Cordite and the same bullet in a .45 Colt loaded with 4.8 gs of Bullseye. There is an image of an X-ray in that book that shows the penetration of a .455 manstopper bullet fired from 5 yards at the point of the shoulder. Penetration was about 4" if the fellow who received the wound was my roughly my size. If he was smaller, it might of been 3". The point to all this is that the large caliber non-expanding hard cast WFN is superior if a large bone is hit. The brand new .45 auto with the jacketed round nose bullet was concluded to be a poor stopper unless bone was hit, but if bone was hit the wound became much more serious than a similar wound with a lead bullet. Given human physiology, what is the chance of not hitting a large bone if the shot is from any angle other than facing head on?

With respect to combat marksmanship, chance and luck play as large a role as skill. The individual who keeps a cool head, who is familiar with his weapon, and who is a skilled marksman has an edge, but his survival depends largely on the incompetence of his attackers. It is the attacker who gets to choose the ground, and this is a huge advantage for him. In a fight, you might not have much of a target to shoot at, although in most street shooting scenarios the target is large, the range is short, and the time is generous.

 

[magicchip]

slow and fat. No worries about overpenetration.

 

[magicchip]

Ahhhhhhhhh, I musta died at least 1000 times then.
Back to seriousness... I have carried both professionally and personally.

Summertime... small pistol is best .380ACP would be minimum.
Fall/winter any caliber will do the job, I prefer .40S&W, however a 9mm with self-defense rounds is more than adequate

Most gunfights use average of THREE rounds.
Most gunfights happen between 5 and 10 yards.

I love my model 29 with 6 1/2" barrel, but wearing that in summer requires a jacket to cover up. Carrying a boat anchor on your side in the long term, will eventually get you a trip to the chiropractors office.

The "cool factor" of CCW gets old after the first week. If I had a $1 for every time I got jabbed in the ribs when sitting down while wearing a pistol, I would be retried by now and living in a gun friendly country!

You've been...errr....penetrated?
(not that there is anything wrong with that)

 

[jamiejaf]

9mm, because it's the calibre of my HK p7. I'm sure the hole size in a head won't matter much. Speed and accuracy means more than massive energy.

 

[pitdogboy]

I've posted this before and I'll post it again......



THE KEYS TO SURVIVING LETHAL FORCE ENCOUNTERS

1. Cultivate a warrior mindset.

2. Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice.

3. Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system.

4. Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance.

Great post...I have never carried or shot at anyone...BUT I have been shot at directly around 6ish times over the course of my life. The guys shooting clearly don't know the above info.

 

[TDC]

Great post...I have never carried or shot at anyone...BUT I have been shot at directly around 6ish times over the course of my life. The guys shooting clearly don't know the above info.

Sounds like their lack of knowledge was to your benefit.

TDC

 

[Gatehouse]

My personal experience does not lead me to believe there is any definitive answer either way. I have done some inadvertent testing; namely, destroying deer, elk, and one bear hit along the road. Montana drivers seem to think that hitting wildlife on the highways is part of owning a driver's license...

I carried Barnes .40 S&W ammunition for a while and it was very effective. However, after a local guy got gnawed on by a bear and a cougar snatched a dog from a group of kids and dogs playing at a picnic just a few miles from here, I changed what I carry to orient more towards a wildlife threat:

That's a 200 gr. bullet that chronographs at just about 1100 fps. I went this way instead of a similar HP after talking with some wildlife guys armed with .40 S&W's while working up in Alaska.

These aren't 9mm, and obviously they're a WFN design, not a truncated cone. But they put deer sized game down with authority and leave wounds that gives me confidence should I ever be forced to use them in defense either on wildlife or on two-legged threats. In fact, their performance is more impressive than the Barnes loads, although there was nothing wrong with the Barnes loads I should point out.

I would point out that a lot of the revolver/pistol crowd who enjoy handgun hunting choose Keith type SWC loads or (increasingly these days) WFN designs over hollow points. Some no doubt out of personal prejudice/traditionalism. But a lot have simply come to the conclusion they get better results out of WFN designs than HP's. Hunting isn't self defense, of course, but given the range of weights and structure of deer, there is a fair similarity to the weight and structure of a human attacker.

I can't project what I've seen with the .40 to the 9mm or any other cartridge, but it is food for thought.


Looking at the members of the gun clubs I belong to down in Montana who carry, very few carry Kahr's or similarly sized micro packages. I am not sure why that is, as there are Kahr's for sale locally. The compact M&P's, XP's, and Glocks seem to get the nod with the revolver folks opting for the J frame Smiths. The odd guy has one of the tiny 1911 clones.

The rest carry service-size pistols: BHP's, XP's, Commander size 1911's, etc. Everyone seems happy with their choices.

If carrying a handgun is uncomfortable, then the person doing the carrying needs to rethink their holster choices and how they carry. I'll make an exception to that opinion for skinny dudes that are all skin and bones - I've never had that build but I have alternated between stocky/muscular and downright fat. I do believe that if you carry a micro pistol, your choices of belt and holster are much less critical.

I carry a full size BHP all day, every day I am down in the US, and I am down there almost as much as I am back up in Canada. A well designed and built tuckable IWB holster is not cheap, but you get what you pay for. A belt slide when cooler weather arrives that permits wearing a microfiber vest is better yet. I do not find even IWB uncomfortable - in fact, it is comfortable to the point that I do worry occasionally that I'll head for the border one day while forgetting to neuter myself first. I solve that by putting my passport in the safe where my firearms are locked up when I'm back up in Canada.

Others who carry concealed regularly may beg to differ on comfort levels. But after four years of carrying concealed almost half of every year, I am basing my opinions on a reasonable amount of personal opinion.

Now THOSE are the bullets I would want in my 45-08 if I ever was to have a bear want to gnaw on me!

Something tells me I will have to cast them myself, though, eh?

 

[EdGCNM]

Well it seems to me that over the years I've seen lots of stories of people being shot COM multiple times with a 9mm who not only survived, but were not stopped, but I've only seen one story of someone shot COM multiple times with a .45 who continued to attack. I'd just trust the .45 to do the job, I guess. But this debate will never be resolved, let's face it. Lots of good points made here, though, I think.

 

[blottoman]

Your comment is kind of silly. If you are shooting someone in the head do you think it is necessary to blow it clean off vs putting a hole through it? Either way the guy is DEAD! You have clearly not though this out at all, nor do you even understand the question you are asking.

I tried some very high velocity 357 Mag 110gr JSP in my ballistics testing and discovered that they tend to "explode" on the surface without much penetration. Do they do a lot of damage? Sure, the wound would be horrible but it would be shallow so if the guy is standing side on to you and the bullet hits his arm, you will be doing no damage to his important organs.

Where a .45 ball round would punch a nice tidy hole through the arm, the chest cavity and the lungs and potentially the heart.

So which one did more damage? The big ragged, bloody hole through his arm or the neat pencil hole through his lungs and heart?

But a 125-158 gr SJHP @ 1700fps would do more damage.

Light and fast wins.

 

[B]

You have odd reading comprehension skills. Just out of curiosity do you own any pistol?Have you done any defensive pistol training? If you answered no to either I imagine that'd be why you think a 125grn bullet @ 1700 FPS would be best for CCW.

 

[Starscream]

Thread over, ultimate CCW cartridge has been found. Might have a sore wrist afterwords though.

 

[Rick]

Now THOSE are the bullets I would want in my 45-08 if I ever was to have a bear want to gnaw on me!

Something tells me I will have to cast them myself, though, eh?

Well, Beartooth Bullets sells some WFN style bullets that are a ripoff of Veral Smiths WFN designs. Not sure if you could get them up here.

If you know what you're doing, you can design the mould you want and have Mountain Moulds cut your mould for you. He does great work:
http://www.mountainmolds.com/

Or you'll get equally as good a mould from Veral Smith, the guy who really fine tuned and developed the WFN concept. He's just a fussy guy to deal with because he insists on you slugging your barrel so he gets the dimensions exactly right. But he does make a hell of a mould. Here's his .45 slug for you:

His website: http://www.lbtmoulds.com/moulds.shtml

I'd go the Mountain Moulds route, but I've been designing my bullet moulds for a while now and think I usually have it figured out. Alternately, just get Veral to make you a WFN design at around 220 gr. with a gas check.

That should be just the ticket.

Cast them out of wheelweights, put them in the oven at 450 degrees using a good thermometer or Tempril pencil (too hot and your bullets will slump, then you have to start all over again), then quench them. Depending on your alloy, you'll get bullets anywhere from about 28 to 32 Bhn that will penetrate good enough to make a Liberal cry they should be banned. Just make sure you size them immediately after you quench them before all the structural changes take place inside the bullet.

Or... you can just cast with Linotype or Monotype. That will give you a lighter bullet which is almost as hard - which might be what you prefer anyways, although I think 220 to 225 grains should be about right in that 45-08 of yours. It's what I would be thinking of. A 200 grain WFN design from anybody is getting awfully short in shank length to width in a .45.