CDTSA 3-Gun Team - Looking for Volunteers

[Yycbulletsandbrass]

Yeah. That definitely becomes a quad-loading competition.

I've shot some 3-gun matches where there was never more than 10 shotgun targets on any one stage.
Very little quad-loading was needed.

I guess it depends on what the match directors are into.

Shotgun ammo is cheap and the stages are easy to setup especially when using reactive targets. However, heavy shotgun based stages or matches just detract from the idea of 3 GUN events. Shotgun gear is quite specialized and not cheap. I know a fair number of people who would compete if it were 2 gun as they don't have nor need a shotgun and don't want to spend money on a gun and gear just to compete.

On a side note I would like to see a two gun steel challenge type event. Fast stages, all reactive targets(can include clays as well) and easy to score.

 

[Scotty454]

I seriously doubt you will ever see the CDTSA move to a 2 gun format. We like shooting guns, including shotguns.

CQB is rifle pistol. Steel challenge is pistol only. Service rifle is rifle only.

If you don't like shooting shotguns, I'd respectfully suggest a discipline that doesn't explicitly state that a shotgun is required.

That's not to say that a new style of match couldn't be created that revolves around rifle and pistol (I'd be into it, more shooting!), but it would have to be separate from 3 gun. The 3 gun format (At its most basic definition- 3 guns) is here to stay for the immediate future.

 

[chillyrabbit]

I think 2 Gun matches could be a thing (easier to get into, and isn't based on how fast you can reload a shotgun), but it would be competing with all the above disciplines for time and space on the Milo range, and I think its already pretty packed. Especially since its easier to get into 2 Gun I would think you could easily get 100+ people trying to sign up and not being able to accommodate everyone.

I personally wouldn't mind having 2 Gun matches (since I don't have a shotgun) but it would need a much different match setup from 3 gun to make it competitive beyond just removing the shotgun stages.

It would basically need to be a separate discipline since you can't copy and paste 3 gun matches minus shotgun to make it work.

 

[Yycbulletsandbrass]

I seriously doubt you will ever see the CDTSA move to a 2 gun format. We like shooting guns, including shotguns.

CQB is rifle pistol. Steel challenge is pistol only. Service rifle is rifle only.

If you don't like shooting shotguns, I'd respectfully suggest a discipline that doesn't explicitly state that a shotgun is required.

That's not to say that a new style of match couldn't be created that revolves around rifle and pistol (I'd be into it, more shooting!), but it would have to be separate from 3 gun. The 3 gun format (At its most basic definition- 3 guns) is here to stay for the immediate future.

I shoot 3 gun at CDTSA and I place better than you Scott Just pointing out that 2 gun is a simpler and cheaper way to roll and it removes the emphasis from shotgun handling as being the deciding factor.

I think 2 Gun matches could be a thing (easier to get into, and isn't based on how fast you can reload a shotgun), but it would be competing with all the above disciplines for time and space on the Milo range, and I think its already pretty packed. Especially since its easier to get into 2 Gun I would think you could easily get 100+ people trying to sign up and not being able to accommodate everyone.

I personally wouldn't mind having 2 Gun matches (since I don't have a shotgun) but it would need a much different match setup from 3 gun to make it competitive beyond just removing the shotgun stages.

It would basically need to be a separate discipline since you can't copy and paste 3 gun matches minus shotgun to make it work.

I think a new division within 3 gun that is 2 gun would work. Shoot the same stages as the 3 gun folks but with rifle and pistol only, ignoring the shotgun targets. The course of fire would be fair for all who compete in the 2 gun category. That would eliminate the conflict for range time. I also think the 3 guns at CDTSA need to be 2 days to accommodate the interest level.

 

[Scotty454]

I shoot 3 gun at CDTSA and I place better than you Scott Just pointing out that 2 gun is a simpler and cheaper way to roll and it removes the emphasis from shotgun handling as being the deciding factor.

Who places higher isn't really relevant to what we're talking about, but congratulations?

But in any case, the crew we have right now all seems to be on the same page. We're looking for new blood though (I think that's what this thread was supposed to be about? Lol), so if you have ideas you'd like to see implemented, the best way to have that happen is to join the team. Help out, contribute, and you'll likely have a bit more say in the way things are done. If we could double the amount of stage designers/ROs we have now, I think they'd look into putting on more matches.

Our matches are essentially already 2 day matches. The setup/RO team is out there from 10am on Saturday morning setting up stages, working bugs out, and shooting the match so that we can spend all day sunday running timers. I don't personally see a 2 day match with more shooters being feasible, but it has been brought up.

 

[Yycbulletsandbrass]

Who places higher isn't really relevant to what we're talking about, but congratulations?

But in any case, the crew we have right now all seems to be on the same page. We're looking for new blood though (I think that's what this thread was supposed to be about? Lol), so if you have ideas you'd like to see implemented, the best way to have that happen is to join the team. Help out, contribute, and you'll likely have a bit more say in the way things are done. If we could double the amount of stage designers/ROs we have now, I think they'd look into putting on more matches.

Our matches are essentially already 2 day matches. The setup/RO team is out there from 10am on Saturday morning setting up stages, working bugs out, and shooting the match so that we can spend all day sunday running timers. I don't personally see a 2 day match with more shooters being feasible, but it has been brought up.

No offence meant, just poking fun at the shotgun lovers I hear you on the setup comment. We usually have 1 RO per squad so I don't see the need for more, other than to offer a break to the existing RO's, although that happens anyway with someone in the squad taking over for a while. My opinion and suggestion is to design stages with more reactive targets like steel, clays, and balloons, less or no paper and shorter faster stages overall.

 

[thejeff]

Yeah. That definitely becomes a quad-loading competition.

I've shot some 3-gun matches where there was never more than 10 shotgun targets on any one stage.
Very little quad-loading was needed.

I guess it depends on what the match directors are into.

The shotgun mega stage is a nod to the matches we used to hold at our Shepard range. That facility has one range that is only approved for shotgun, so we used to have a 3 stage match where 1 stage was 25 rounds of shotgun.

Since we moved to Milo, people wanted the mega stage to come back. Since people enjoyed it, we happily brought it back.

We run an outlaw match format, so we typically include some kind of non-shooting challenge to level the playing field for new shooters.

 

[thejeff]

No offence meant, just poking fun at the shotgun lovers I hear you on the setup comment. We usually have 1 RO per squad so I don't see the need for more, other than to offer a break to the existing RO's, although that happens anyway with someone in the squad taking over for a while. My opinion and suggestion is to design stages with more reactive targets like steel, clays, and balloons, less or no paper and shorter faster stages overall.

Yes! Darn those people with skills you don't have or refuse to master. May your scorn fall heavy on their shoulders.

More ROs is always better. Not everyone can make it to every match. People have work commitments, get sick, etc. Plus it's nice to not have to run every stage 15 times. I would also like to add ROs so we can run additional squads. We're expecting to to be able to go to 5 simultaneous squads this year. This means more ROs. This also means faster matches.

So you want shorter stages with more targets... Which is it? Shorter stages or more targets?

The reason we're running paper for rifle in some of our bays is that we have an issue with people showing up with ammo that damages our targets. AR500 is durable stuff, but a steel penetrator under 75 yards will still damage the plate.

 

[Yycbulletsandbrass]

Yes! Darn those people with skills you don't have or refuse to master. May your scorn fall heavy on their shoulders.

More ROs is always better. Not everyone can make it to every match. People have work commitments, get sick, etc. Plus it's nice to not have to run every stage 15 times. I would also like to add ROs so we can run additional squads. We're expecting to to be able to go to 5 simultaneous squads this year. This means more ROs. This also means faster matches.

So you want shorter stages with more targets... Which is it? Shorter stages or more targets?

The reason we're running paper for rifle in some of our bays is that we have an issue with people showing up with ammo that damages our targets. AR500 is durable stuff, but a steel penetrator under 75 yards will still damage the plate.

More reactive targets Jeff, not more targets. A magnet keeps the inappropriate ammo from being used, that rule has been around forever so there's no excuse for people showing up with it. And like I said, if we used more reactive targets like clays and balloons it wouldn't matter. Much easier to score/see and opens the door for those who only have naughty ammo to use.

When you say additional squads I am confused? With only 4 stages(due to time) how would more than 4 squads make things any faster, multiple bays with identical setups??

 

[Scotty454]

More reactive targets Jeff, not more targets. A magnet keeps the inappropriate ammo from being used, that rule has been around forever so there's no excuse for people showing up with it. And like I said, if we used more reactive targets like clays and balloons it wouldn't matter. Much easier to score/see and opens the door for those who only have naughty ammo to use.

When you say additional squads I am confused? With only 4 stages(due to time) how would more than 4 squads make things any faster, multiple bays with identical setups??

We're always trying to use more steel and less paper for ease of reset. But with short range rifle, we're forced to shoot paper. Steel core or not, shooting steel at ~50m or less with high velocity rifle is a no go. Setting up clays or balloons for EVERY shooter would definitely not be any faster than taping a few little holes in a target.

We are looking into new pistol/shotgun targets (Possibly more elaborate ones; swinging, spinning, that kind of thing) for this season, but sometimes acquiring and testing these things takes longer than we'd like... We'll see.

With any luck, our new multi-use bays will be approved and ready to go for this season. There's 5 of them, which would allow for an additional stage. Same number of shooters (I assume), but broken up into smaller squads. More people shooting simultaneously should make for a quicker match.

 

[Yycbulletsandbrass]

We're always trying to use more steel and less paper for ease of reset. But with short range rifle, we're forced to shoot paper. Steel core or not, shooting steel at ~50m or less with high velocity rifle is a no go. Setting up clays or balloons for EVERY shooter would definitely not be any faster than taping a few little holes in a target.

We are looking into new pistol/shotgun targets (Possibly more elaborate ones; swinging, spinning, that kind of thing) for this season, but sometimes acquiring and testing these things takes longer than we'd like... We'll see.

With any luck, our new multi-use bays will be approved and ready to go for this season. There's 5 of them, which would allow for an additional stage. Same number of shooters (I assume), but broken up into smaller squads. More people shooting simultaneously should make for a quicker match.

That's right the multi use bays! Those should be fantastic.

Replacing one clay is much faster than peeling and tearing 4/5/6 pieces of tape per target, and much easier to score.

 

[thejeff]

More reactive targets Jeff, not more targets. A magnet keeps the inappropriate ammo from being used, that rule has been around forever so there's no excuse for people showing up with it. And like I said, if we used more reactive targets like clays and balloons it wouldn't matter. Much easier to score/see and opens the door for those who only have naughty ammo to use.

You'd think published rules and a magnet would keep the wrong ammo from showing up. You'd also think that between publishing our rules about how we need things grounded, as well as repeating it again during the morning safety briefing would make sure people are aware of how we want guns grounded.

I think balloons are a non-starter. When the Gale Winds Of Milo pick up, I have no idea how to store, literally, 100s of balloons in a way that will survive that. Clays, maybe, but they require more time to reset and a bunch of cleanup after the match. Shooting a clay with a rifle doesn't guarantee a nice broken clay either.

When you say additional squads I am confused? With only 4 stages(due to time) how would more than 4 squads make things any faster, multiple bays with identical setups??

Well, when you divide 50-60 people into 5 groups instead of 4, the groups are smaller. Assuming reset times are under control, things should move faster because people will stay engaged and help out, instead of getting bored since they haven't shot for 45 minutes.

 

[Yycbulletsandbrass]

You'd think published rules and a magnet would keep the wrong ammo from showing up. You'd also think that between publishing our rules about how we need things grounded, as well as repeating it again during the morning safety briefing would make sure people are aware of how we want guns grounded.

I think balloons are a non-starter. When the Gale Winds Of Milo pick up, I have no idea how to store, literally, 100s of balloons in a way that will survive that. Clays, maybe, but they require more time to reset and a bunch of cleanup after the match. Shooting a clay with a rifle doesn't guarantee a nice broken clay either.



Well, when you divide 50-60 people into 5 groups instead of 4, the groups are smaller. Assuming reset times are under control, things should move faster because people will stay engaged and help out, instead of getting bored since they haven't shot for 45 minutes.

The rules are the rules Jeff, more match DQ's might be in order.

Balloons can be stored in bags or inflated as needed by the squad members. A quick staple(or heavy duty black paper clip) of the knot to the target should suffice.

The clean up is an issue but should be minimal. Clays that don't break are a concern.. For handgun they work fine.

From what I've observed it isn't the size of the squad, it's how lazy some are and the fact that it's usually the same 5-7 in a squad that do all the resetting.

 

[Scotty454]

The rules are the rules Jeff, more match DQ's might be in order.

Balloons can be stored in bags or inflated as needed by the squad members. A quick staple(or heavy duty black paper clip) of the knot to the target should suffice.

The clean up is an issue but should be minimal. Clays that don't break are a concern.. For handgun they work fine.

From what I've observed it isn't the size of the squad, it's how lazy some are and the fact that it's usually the same 5-7 in a squad that do all the resetting.

How can you compare one clay/balloon to 4/5/6 rifle holes? I don't want my stages to have low round counts because we're gonna run out of clays or balloons.

Shot for shot, taping paper targets is faster. Between having to replace/blow up balloons (lol), and clear chunks of broken clays to make room for new ones/make sure they're held properly, it just is.

Balloons is... Ridiculous. I can't even take that seriously. You very obviously don't design stages. Which is fine. But just... Stop.

 

[Murray 3-D]

I have been attending CDTSAs 3 gun matches for the last 3+ years... and although I cant comment on how strenuous the stage design, planning and prop building may be.... the actual stage setup on Saturday and the resetting on the match day seems to be refined enough if u ask me.

Lately CDTSA has been receiving enough volunteers that stages are all setup by 2pm Saturday.

And on match day the event starts at like 9-10am ish, and we'll successfully cycle thru like 50+ competitor's and have final shots by 4-5 pm and a completed tear down not to long after.

I've noticed in the squads I'm a part of, there's lots of eager shooters ready to reset when the stage is clear... so much so that a person will literally walk down and end up setting just one chicken up lol cus 4 others got the rest.

Taping occurs so fast that lately we've been having the problem that targets are getting taped before the score is even recorded haha

 

[Yycbulletsandbrass]

How can you compare one clay/balloon to 4/5/6 rifle holes? I don't want my stages to have low round counts because we're gonna run out of clays or balloons.

Shot for shot, taping paper targets is faster. Between having to replace/blow up balloons (lol), and clear chunks of broken clays to make room for new ones/make sure they're held properly, it just is.

Balloons is... Ridiculous. I can't even take that seriously. You very obviously don't design stages. Which is fine. But just... Stop.

you're not thinking outside the box hard enough Scott. Balloons are very doable and the round counts for rifle and pistol(not that you need anything but steel for pistol) the last few matches were hardly high. Which brings us back to the biggest problem with the matches, and that is reset time between shooters. I attribute the majority of the delay to the stage design and the labour intensive nature of the reset. taping sucks all around. Covering the cardboard with a fresh paper target is fast. Replacing the cardboard with another and taping the used one(s) while the next shooter is shooting is another option that maximizes the use of down time by non shooters.


Round counts from 2018 matches at Milo

Rifle, pistol, shotgun, (slug)

45, 66, 39
34, 51, 44(11 slug)
36, 36, 32(4 optional slug)

Over 4 stages that averages at
11, 16, 10
8, 13, 11(3 slugs)
9, 9, 8


ETA: Oh and what's the reasoning behind not using steel at shorter ranges? Here's LAV blasting steel at about 25 yards with FMJ.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcGhhCysxEU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KHd4FC-ags

Or Garand Thumb, at very close range(ok it's also killer gun pron prior to the match season)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eHeyWG-kWM

 

[Scotty454]

you're not thinking outside the box hard enough Scott. Balloons are very doable and the round counts for rifle and pistol(not that you need anything but steel for pistol) the last few matches were hardly high. Which brings us back to the biggest problem with the matches, and that is reset time between shooters. I attribute the majority of the delay to the stage design and the labour intensive nature of the reset. taping sucks all around. Covering the cardboard with a fresh paper target is fast. Replacing the cardboard with another and taping the used one(s) while the next shooter is shooting is another option that maximizes the use of down time by non shooters.


Round counts from 2018 matches at Milo

Rifle, pistol, shotgun, (slug)

45, 66, 39
34, 51, 44(11 slug)
36, 36, 32(4 optional slug)

Over 4 stages that averages at
11, 16, 10
8, 13, 11(3 slugs)
9, 9, 8


ETA: Oh and what's the reasoning behind not using steel at shorter ranges? Here's LAV blasting steel at about 25 yards with FMJ.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcGhhCysxEU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KHd4FC-ags

Or Garand Thumb, at very close range(ok it's also killer gun pron prior to the match season)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eHeyWG-kWM

...We have to put about 8 staples per cardboard target to prevent them from getting torn off in the wind. Half the time when I take take them down at the end if the day they get torn in such a way that it would be impossible to staple them back on. Stapling 60 sheets of paper on a target is not feasible. Taping is fine, evidence of this being that it's the norm across many shooting sports. Are they all wrong?

Reset time is a significant consideration in our stage designs. Inconveniently, our targets that are the most fun require reset (tombstones, poppers, Texas stars, shotgun knockdowns, swingers, etc). We try to find a balance between fun and fast. You'd know all these things if you were on the other side of the match, designing and proving stages.

The overwhelming majority of our pistol targets are steel, and require zero reset.

25 yard rifle steel will not happen. Full stop. I'm losing interest in justifying things. We're gonna keep running matches that everyone seems to enjoy but you; you don't have to shoot them if you don't like them, mmkay?

 

[Murray 3-D]

Lol well said ^ next match I should record the cycle time between shooters to see how much time we are really burning doing wat and where. I think we'd all be very Surprised how little time is actually spent resetting.

 

[Murray 3-D]

"But dont u want a balloon Scotty " ??

 

[JoKa]

Yes I’m on waitlist. Everything I’ve heard is thay it can take years to get in.

Not sure who said that to you because I think last year was the first year EVER in the history of CDTSA that we didnt let every single person in and the wait list carried over to the next year.