CF small arms trial completed

Cameron SS you take your opinion far to serious. Mine too for that matter. Biden is out in three years, the Republicans will gain the Senate and likely the house and the US will end up as the most advanced Third World country on the planet. Trump will either die of a heart attack, end as a convicted felon or lose another election. Pick one there are not many other options for him.

The CAF will end up with a Sig 320 made in the US of A.

As to the fighter jets the Swedes have the best deal for Canada and you can bet your life Trudeau and his cronies will have their hands all over the contract if they get it.

Canada is the US's largest trading partner and nothing is going to change that, not even Biden.

Take Care

Bob
 
While I love the browning hi power the ones in CF service are at least 75 years old. They should have been replaced decades ago.

Made in 1944/45 to be exact. The fact they are still in service might suggest how valuable and important the pistol is to our Armed Forces.

Take Care

Bob
 
In case anyone missed it, the pistol replacement has been cancelled (again) in order to redo the tender in such a way as to not hurt Rampart's feelings.

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/dnd-replacement-program-for-second-world-war-era-pistols-delayed-once-again

This is beyond a joke at this point. Bullsh*t like this only hurts the people who have to continue carrying the clapped-out Hi-Power. This should have been a simple off-the-shelf purchase; we could have picked practically any modern duty pistol and been totally fine. Instead we're back to square one yet again.

At this point, I hope Rampart / Glock don't actually win the revised tender for the GSP just because they're being such bad sports about the whole thing.

/end rant

In the end, it sucks that its happening again....that said, MD Charlton has had MORE than its share of complaints and lawsuits against "buyers" because of perceived unfair requirements. I have seen it more than once. What needs to happen is the government either needs to grow some plumbs and just buy what they want or write specs that don't favour a specific brand.
 
Made in 1944/45 to be exact. The fact they are still in service might suggest how valuable and important the pistol is to our Armed Forces.

Take Care

Bob

or how much an afterthought they are.....its like using a 52 wiley's jeep for military service TODAY.
 
I can just see it now: "after 60 years of pistol replacement trials and contract wrangling, the CAF has chosen the new issue handgun....only to find that the manufacturer/model they want went out of business and is no longet available☺
 
I can just see it now: "after 60 years of pistol replacement trials and contract wrangling, the CAF has chosen the new issue handgun....only to find that the manufacturer/model they want went out of business and is no longet available☺

That’s happened numerous times with numerous items of military kit over the years.

It’s done so often, I’m thinking it’s a requirement….:sok2
 
Our 1944/45 Hi Powers are done. All can agree on that. They're an excellent gun, but they're old and worn out and no longer sustainable as parts are getting harder and harder to come by.

My $0.02 on a few points from this thread:

1. The requirement for a self-contained fire control group narrows the field to, as has been mentioned, a Steyr, a Beretta, and the SIG. What is gained by this in terms of functionality? Nothing. It's not as though we're going to have 14 different pistol configurations so every troop gets their personal custom fit dinner gat. This is the CAF we're talking about. Even if they get a model with replaceable back/front straps or interchangeable grip modules those items will disappear into a bin in the back of a vault and virtually never be used outside of SOF, MPs and the competitive CAFSAC types. Nobody else gets to spend any appreciable amount of time working with a pistol, certainly nobody will teach the 2Lt assigned as this week's RSO to add extra time into his/her Training Instruction / OP Order to allow for people to swap pistol parts around to get the best fit. Am I being cynical? Maybe. But that's been my experience over the past 15 years. Conclusion: BS Requirement for most uses, and for those who actually would use them (MPs mainly), equally well met by interchangeable grip modules or replaceable back/front straps as done by several manufacturers. CITT got this right, the requirement should be for the size of the grip to be reconfigurable to meet the various hand sizes of those who carry them. It never ceases to amaze me how the folks in Ottawa are so terrible at following their own rules. You'd think someone in procurement would get trained on how to write an RFP based on the bona fide requirements and not have it be obviously tailored to a predetermined result.

2. The requirement to not need to pull the trigger to disassemble. This has been discussed a great deal here, but I must respectfully disagree on the following basis: We already pull the trigger as part of the unload on our small arms. You always unload before disassembling. Our NDs happen on the unload. If someone is going to ND on disassembly, they will already have had that ND on the unload, so I don't see this as something that's actually likely to increase NDs. Furthermore, the fact of the magazine disconnect going away will reduce NDs caused by improper unload drills by simplifying the process and making it essentially the same as the service rifle.

3. The requirement for a manual safety is also, IMO, junk. The plain fact of the matter is that most people who will carry a pistol (outside of SOF and MPs) in the CAF will do so rarely and be poorly trained at it. Yet the time may come when they need to use it. In the military context, when you need your pistol, you need it right friggin' now, because the enemy is stepping on your throat and everything has gone to hell. That is not the time for adding another step in the process of firing that gun. Point, press, repeat until threat ends. No additional fiddle-farting around with levers and switches ought be required. That is the great advantage of modern striker-fired pistols over external hammers. Somebody mentioned the trigger getting caught on brush and such. Nonsense. If it's in your hand and you're so inattentive as to manage to pull the trigger on a tree, you've no business holding a firearm. If it's holstered, the trigger is enclosed and that just doesn't happen. I could see it with a rifle on a sling while crawling through a thicket, but this is a pistol we're talking about, and not one with a polished 0.9lb 1911 race trigger either.


On those opinion points, I welcome discussion.

FWIW, I'll be happy with the SIG, or a Glock, or a CZ, or just about any other likely contender that might come along as a result of the changes directed by the CITT. Those of us that can shoot pistols will learn to be good with whatever we get. Those of us that can't will continue to blame the pistol just as they currently blame the BHP. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
 
Our 1944/45 Hi Powers are done. All can agree on that. They're an excellent gun, but they're old and worn out and no longer sustainable as parts are getting harder and harder to come by.

My $0.02 on a few points from this thread:

1. The requirement for a self-contained fire control group narrows the field to, as has been mentioned, a Steyr, a Beretta, and the SIG. What is gained by this in terms of functionality? Nothing. It's not as though we're going to have 14 different pistol configurations so every troop gets their personal custom fit dinner gat. This is the CAF we're talking about. Even if they get a model with replaceable back/front straps or interchangeable grip modules those items will disappear into a bin in the back of a vault and virtually never be used outside of SOF, MPs and the competitive CAFSAC types. Nobody else gets to spend any appreciable amount of time working with a pistol, certainly nobody will teach the 2Lt assigned as this week's RSO to add extra time into his/her Training Instruction / OP Order to allow for people to swap pistol parts around to get the best fit. Am I being cynical? Maybe. But that's been my experience over the past 15 years. Conclusion: BS Requirement for most uses, and for those who actually would use them (MPs mainly), equally well met by interchangeable grip modules or replaceable back/front straps as done by several manufacturers. CITT got this right, the requirement should be for the size of the grip to be reconfigurable to meet the various hand sizes of those who carry them. It never ceases to amaze me how the folks in Ottawa are so terrible at following their own rules. You'd think someone in procurement would get trained on how to write an RFP based on the bona fide requirements and not have it be obviously tailored to a predetermined result.

2. The requirement to not need to pull the trigger to disassemble. This has been discussed a great deal here, but I must respectfully disagree on the following basis: We already pull the trigger as part of the unload on our small arms. You always unload before disassembling. Our NDs happen on the unload. If someone is going to ND on disassembly, they will already have had that ND on the unload, so I don't see this as something that's actually likely to increase NDs. Furthermore, the fact of the magazine disconnect going away will reduce NDs caused by improper unload drills by simplifying the process and making it essentially the same as the service rifle.

3. The requirement for a manual safety is also, IMO, junk. The plain fact of the matter is that most people who will carry a pistol (outside of SOF and MPs) in the CAF will do so rarely and be poorly trained at it. Yet the time may come when they need to use it. In the military context, when you need your pistol, you need it right friggin' now, because the enemy is stepping on your throat and everything has gone to hell. That is not the time for adding another step in the process of firing that gun. Point, press, repeat until threat ends. No additional fiddle-farting around with levers and switches ought be required. That is the great advantage of modern striker-fired pistols over external hammers. Somebody mentioned the trigger getting caught on brush and such. Nonsense. If it's in your hand and you're so inattentive as to manage to pull the trigger on a tree, you've no business holding a firearm. If it's holstered, the trigger is enclosed and that just doesn't happen. I could see it with a rifle on a sling while crawling through a thicket, but this is a pistol we're talking about, and not one with a polished 0.9lb 1911 race trigger either.


On those opinion points, I welcome discussion.

FWIW, I'll be happy with the SIG, or a Glock, or a CZ, or just about any other likely contender that might come along as a result of the changes directed by the CITT. Those of us that can shoot pistols will learn to be good with whatever we get. Those of us that can't will continue to blame the pistol just as they currently blame the BHP. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

SMASHED THAT NAIL RIGHT ON THE HEAD WITH A SLEDGE HAMMER!

Boltgun
 
Murray 310 you have to remember the Inglis was made based upon Imperial measurements using Canadian tooling, not metric like the FN P-35 High Power. Not all parts will fit, as in drop in.

Take Care

Bob
 
Murray 310 you have to remember the Inglis was made based upon Imperial measurements using Canadian tooling, not metric like the FN P-35 High Power. Not all parts will fit, as in drop in.

Thanks Bob, that's interesting. It only supports my statement about parts being more and more difficult to come by. I'm a RCEME tech, I work hand-in-hand with the weapons techs that fix them, so I have that fact from the horse's mouth.
 
Murray310's post is bang on.

Rich, your post doesn't make sense. You're saying that the US Army one got challenged and thrown out, who challenged it? What is the difference between what happened there to the Canadian one? I don't see what Rampart did that was wrong. As their complaint was upheld, I'd say it had merit.
 
The Sig type of enclosed trigger does allow the use of a PDW conversion such as the Flux 17. It goes give a way to implement PDW since the CF just gives everyone a 1m stick including the support people, and they don't seem to care about changing that. At the end, the specifications are not important themselves, people can argue til crows come home of what it is preferred. The businesses involved are going to fight one way or the other. It is just the way procurement businesses are.

Neither glock nor SIG nor any factory cares about that insignificant 20K multi year pistols they have less headache and they make more profit just to ship 20K to a big US distributor. It is peanut to the factory but a significant addition to the top line for the regional importer involved, plus the importer can sell more to the regional civie market and add to the company's street credit for future government sales ( hey my company is awarded a major government contract, trust us! )

Every major RFP always ends up in protest and dog fights, because it is business. When 250K weapons are involved, the factories are involved in the fight. When only 10 to 20K, the local regional guys fight amongst themselves. Be it in the US, the EU, Germany, Canada, India, the middle east....any where.

This is not a moral judgement of anyone, businesses fight to win contracts so they will do what they need to do, and they will exploit any weakness in the RFP, in ANY INDUSTRIES. It is the job of the procurement office to write a RFP that has the minimum amount of holes for people to challenge, but it is almost impossible to avoid challenges by default. So it is naive to point finger to or take side with either the importer or the procurement people. They look after their own interests and the system allows it. To certain extent, the system encourages it as a check and balance, but at times it is overdone like in Canada.

Do the end users suffer, unfortunately yes - but this is how it goes with the government procurement when they focus on where and how the money goes versus getting the stuff and the job done efficiently. There is a balance, but sometimes the balance is tilted to one side too much.
 
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The Sig type of enclosed trigger does allow the use of a PDW conversion such as the Flux 17. It goes give a way to implement PDW since the CF just gives everyone a 1m stick including the support people, and they don't seem to care about changing that. At the end, the specifications are not important itself, people can argue til crows come home of what it is preferred. The businesses involved are going to fight one way or the other. It is just the way procurement businesses are.

Neither glock or SIG or any factory cares about that insignificant 20K multi year pistols they have less headache and they make more profit just to ship 20K to a big US distributor. It is peanut to the factory but a significant addition to the top line for the regional importer involved, plus the importer can sell more to the regiionalcivie market and add to the company's street credit for future government sales ( hey my company is awarded a major government contract, trust us! )

Every major RFP always end up in protest and dog fights, because it is business. When 250K weapons are involved, the factories are involved in the fight. When only 10 to 20K, the local regional guys fight amongst themselves. Be in the US, the EU, Germany, Canada, India, the middle east....any where.

This is not a moral judgement of anyone, businesses fight to win contracts so they will do what they need to do, and they will exploit any weakness in the RFP, in ANY INDUSTRIES. It is the job of the procurement office to write a RFP that has minimum amount of holes for people to challenge, but it is almost impossible to avoid challenge by default. So it is naive to point finger to or take side with either the importer or the procurement people. They look after their own interests and the system allows it. To certain extent, the system encourages it as a check and balance, but at times it is overdone like in Canada.

Do the end users suffer, unfortunately yes - but this is how it goes with the government procurement when they focus on where the money goes versus getting the stuff and the job done efficiently.

This. The Government could have the balls to tell the trade folks to shove their assessment and go ahead with the purchase but governments being what they are and politicians being what thy are....Any of the guns go bang when you pull the trigger. Pick one...buy one. Once done the various fan boys will crow about their #### being better than your #### and the forums will light up.

Take Care

Bob
 
It just seems that there is interference with what the Military is trying to do on all procurements.
US Army writes that they want a modular handgun....only one left in their trial that was truly modular was the P320. Glock threw a temper tantrum but their challenge was quickly dismissed. Regardless of if you agree or not with the US Army RFP....it's what they wanted and no-one should be telling them what they can and can't have.
Now maybe the CF RFP was not written well but the CF wanted the P320 yet we have a civilian body stopping the procurement and now the troops are going to wait some more. The CF likely has very good reasons to have the same system as our closest partner whether you love Glock or Sig, it's not a bad idea.
Same thing with fighter aircraft. Delay after delay and the Air Force suffers.
I just don't like civilian bodies interfering and stopping gear getting to the troops.

Rich
 
It just seems that there is interference with what the Military is trying to do on all procurements.
US Army writes that they want a modular handgun....only one left in their trial that was truly modular was the P320. Glock threw a temper tantrum but their challenge was quickly dismissed. Regardless of if you agree or not with the US Army RFP....it's what they wanted and no-one should be telling them what they can and can't have.
Now maybe the CF RFP was not written well but the CF wanted the P320 yet we have a civilian body stopping the procurement and now the troops are going to wait some more. The CF likely has very good reasons to have the same system as our closest partner whether you love Glock or Sig, it's not a bad idea.
Same thing with fighter aircraft. Delay after delay and the Air Force suffers.
I just don't like civilian bodies interfering and stopping gear getting to the troops.

Rich

Your commends suggest you're under the impression that the military does its own procurement, and that a civilian body (the CITT) is interfering with that. The military doesn't get that kind of free reign; we haven't for decades. Procurement of any significant size is done by PSPC. The CAF has input, sure, but the process is in civilian hands from basically the beginning. IMO, this is less about civilians interfering with military than it is about bureaucrats in DND and PSPC doing their jobs poorly. I'd be very surprised if the RFP was written by anyone in uniform and then went out without being tweaked by civilians first. None of which is to say that someone in uniform would have done a better job; the staff officers in that sort of position wouldn't spend enough time in the role to get good at it. The system is very dysfunctional, but it's not adversarial against the military in the way your comments imply.

You're 100% correct though, that we, the end-users, are the ones left holding the bag of broken and/or worn-out equipment.

FWIW, while I disagree with some of your thoughts, I do appreciate that you're rooting for us to get better kit. Thanks for that.
 
The Sig type of enclosed trigger does allow the use of a PDW conversion such as the Flux 17. It goes give a way to implement PDW since the CF just gives everyone a 1m stick including the support people, and they don't seem to care about changing that. At the end, the specifications are not important themselves, people can argue til crows come home of what it is preferred. The businesses involved are going to fight one way or the other. It is just the way procurement businesses are.

Neither glock nor SIG nor any factory cares about that insignificant 20K multi year pistols they have less headache and they make more profit just to ship 20K to a big US distributor. It is peanut to the factory but a significant addition to the top line for the regional importer involved, plus the importer can sell more to the regional civie market and add to the company's street credit for future government sales ( hey my company is awarded a major government contract, trust us! )

Every major RFP always ends up in protest and dog fights, because it is business. When 250K weapons are involved, the factories are involved in the fight. When only 10 to 20K, the local regional guys fight amongst themselves. Be it in the US, the EU, Germany, Canada, India, the middle east....any where.

This is not a moral judgement of anyone, businesses fight to win contracts so they will do what they need to do, and they will exploit any weakness in the RFP, in ANY INDUSTRIES. It is the job of the procurement office to write a RFP that has the minimum amount of holes for people to challenge, but it is almost impossible to avoid challenges by default. So it is naive to point finger to or take side with either the importer or the procurement people. They look after their own interests and the system allows it. To certain extent, the system encourages it as a check and balance, but at times it is overdone like in Canada.

Do the end users suffer, unfortunately yes - but this is how it goes with the government procurement when they focus on where and how the money goes versus getting the stuff and the job done efficiently. There is a balance, but sometimes the balance is tilted to one side too much.

Greentips, your insights on the business side of things are quite on point, and also interesting. The dynamics of scale are certainly at play in anything we do, being such a small military.

While I'm aware of the possibilities of the self-contained FCU in the SIG, you're also on point in saying they don't care to change the current doctrine of giving everyone 1m sticks. So if the idea of moving pistol FCUs into PDWs so guys like me could have a weapon they could actually employ from the hatch of a Bison actually played into this RFP, I'd be so shocked I'd likely qualify for a 3b medical release.

The most logical explanation is that they were trying to fix the game, and that's just not on. Which they knew - these rules aren't secret, I had to learn them to buy ratchets and nuts and bolts. The real trouble is not even that those of us who have to use the stuff are the ones who suffer, it's that the folks that wrote the RFP in violation of their own rules, and the layers of people above them who approved it, will not be held accountable, and will try the same nonsense with the next program and delay it too.

Which is why I expect to still be driving an LSVW when I hit pension eligibility.
 
Murray,

I do know that CITT is responsible, just frustrated in the process and amount of time it takes to get new kit in many if not most cases.
It seemed Prime Minister Harper's Government was able to do some sole source procurement for big items quickly (CBC lost their minds, but CF still got the Globe Masters and M777 guns). I don't know how that was accomplished but I think CF should have more direct control over what they want to buy and do it more quickly.
The comparison I was making to the situation in the US (we and them are different animals) was that Glock lost their minds when they lost but the appeal didn't delay the process much.

Rich
 
...but I think CF should have more direct control over what they want to buy and do it more quickly.

No sh!t.

CF kit is a joke.

Just thinking back to my time in the 90s, off the top of my head, of my own personal kit I replaced or supplemented the following with modified or better (where/when I could - courses being the biggest exception):

82' pattern ruck ----> 64' pattern frame with a custom bag made in the 2 PPCLI Maint. Pl. workshop
82' pattern webbing ----> Supplemented mag pouches with 44' pattern Bren pouches
Mk 2 (or 3?) Combat boots ----> Danner Acadians
Cotton waffle long underwear ----> Poly pro and wool thermals
Nylon ground sheet ----> Cascadia Designs Bivi bag
Rubber air mattress ----> Thermarest (before they wised up and started issuing them)
Nylon Valise ----> waterproof compression sack

Then there was the ubiquitous Norgi shirts, US ranger blankets, M60 jacket liners and other odds and sods that people used.

Remember what the CF's take was on the US Ranger blanket? What an utter abortion.

Societally speaking, the Army is treated one step up from a bunch of f*cking hobos.
 
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