Chamber inserts and morris tubes?

HeadDamage

HeadDamage

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I did a search and didn’t find anything on this so I hope I’m not dredging something up that has been dealt with on here before.

Chamber inserts are available that allow the shooting of 22lr in some larger caliber guns. If these inserts where used in an antique gun would it alter its antique status? I've used them in modern firearms, sort of fun but not very useful.

How about a 22lr morris tube?

Neither of the above requires machining or permanent modification of the firearm.
 
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While I'm no authority, I'm pretty confident in saying that since the gun is not being permaneently altered it remains an antique.

I once owned a .450 Martini that I used to fire .45 Colts from, by using a chamber bushing. Not really impressive results...my groups looked like shotgun patterns! I may have been better served if I had chosen a smaller sub-calibre and a longer, rifled insert. While I've used a few different adapters, I as yet have no experience of the rifled ones. I am considering getting one for a 16 Ga. Savage 94...just haven't settled on the calibre yet.
 
I believe it might change its status since the .22 adapter for the webley revolver is no-gunsmithing and uses a replacement "cylinder" and sub caliber barrel insert much like the morris tubes, but I've been told changes the webley's status. That said I've never spoken to a reputable tech about it.


Now, to a better point - why does it matter if it changes the gun's status? The martini would convert to a long rifle in status anyways, so kinda a moot point unless someone without a PAL is shooting it without supervision?
 
the problem with a .22lr is rimfire vs the martini centerfire a plug would be needed and that mean no easy way to make a extractor. on the other hand something like a .25-20 would work out or you could go with a modified Morris round that takes .223" bullets instead of .228" bullets. I have a martini chamber adapter that been reamed .45lc/.410 I have yet to try .45lc but I already know to its maybe minute of pie plate at 15 yards .410 makes a decent enough patter to take a squirrel at close range
 
antiqueguy said:
the problem with a .22lr is rimfire vs the martini centerfire a plug would be needed and that mean no easy way to make a extractor. on the other hand something like a .25-20 would work out or you could go with a modified Morris round that takes .223" bullets instead of .228" bullets. I have a martini chamber adapter that been reamed .45lc/.410 I have yet to try .45lc but I already know to its maybe minute of pie plate at 15 yards .410 makes a decent enough patter to take a squirrel at close range
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I'd assume the insert would be made similarly to the krieghoff chamber inserts that lock themselves into the chamber and have an extractor whose rim sits on the martini's extractor. The martini extractor lifts the insert's extractor which lifts the casing. They're quite dandy! (Just don't shut the action on them if it doesn't have a return spring!)
 
Still wondering if a removable chamber insert, morris tube, or some other removable non-permanent adaptor system would be legal or not either in an antique hand gun or for a person without a PAL in an antique rifle if it allowed for the use of a caliber that is on the list of not antique calibers?

For example there are 45acp to 22lr chamber inserts available, can a 22lr round be fired from a 45acp converted antique with one of these and have it still be an antique?

I know how to do this, I just can’t figure out if I am allowed to do this. If it is legal it might be fun to try for small game or plinking.
 
Relative to your friend with no PAL, I think it is legal for him to possess a chamber insert or a removable barrel liner and the martini separately but I don't think it is legal for him to possess them installed in his gun since he does not have a PAL and both 22 rimfire and 22 morris change the gun to modern from antique. On the other hand as long as the liner / insert was over roughly 33 caliber, the combination would remain antique and he could possess the modified gun without a PAL. The problem with an insert in either 45 long colt or 45 auto is that their bullet diameter is .451 and the bore (not groove) diameter of the 450-577 is roughly .450. A chamber liner for a 45-70 shell shortened so that the fired cartridge length is just short of the 450-577 shoulder might work after a fashion because of its larger bullet. What I found with a full length 45-70 shell in a liner was that with full loads, I got a pressure ring at the mouth of the case and that made the fired cartridge difficult to remove from the liner

cheers mooncoon
 
the way I see it if you are not caught with a liner installed you could get away with it. I don't think there is enough meat to make it something like a full length .38 special the again they did make morris tubes for .303 and .22 tubes for .303 that were smooth bore
 
mooncoon said:
Relative to your friend with no PAL, I think it is legal for him to possess a chamber insert or a removable barrel liner and the martini separately but I don't think it is legal for him to possess them installed in his gun since he does not have a PAL and both 22 rimfire and 22 morris change the gun to modern from antique. On the other hand as long as the liner / insert was over roughly 33 caliber, the combination would remain antique and he could possess the modified gun without a PAL. The problem with an insert in either 45 long colt or 45 auto is that their bullet diameter is .451 and the bore (not groove) diameter of the 450-577 is roughly .450. A chamber liner for a 45-70 shell shortened so that the fired cartridge length is just short of the 450-577 shoulder might work after a fashion because of its larger bullet. What I found with a full length 45-70 shell in a liner was that with full loads, I got a pressure ring at the mouth of the case and that made the fired cartridge difficult to remove from the liner

cheers mooncoon
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im still in the process of tweaking a .468" heel base bullet design to be used in .45 colt cases. since my chamber adapter is reamed with both .45 colt and .410 chamber reamers its .468" at the mouth
 
.22mag isn't on the "no go" list..... hint hint ;) ;).

For a .22lr adapter you can pretty well bet even if you're within the law you'd be testing the legality in court if found. You may be "right" but you're still out court fees and/or your time.
 
They can be ordered online. I haven't seen any in 22wmr but I would be sure the are legal and not to worry as Loki points out. I'd love a 22wmr conversion (even single shot) for a Webley revolver.
 
HeadDamage said:
They can be ordered online. I haven't seen any in 22wmr but I would be sure the are legal and not to worry as Loki points out. I'd love a 22wmr conversion (even single shot) for a Webley revolver.
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chamber inserts can be had but anything longer then 2.3" or so will not go in from the breech the morris has chamber insert but a barrel that gets fed in through the muzzle and threads into the insert. something simple could be made with just a liner and a insert for .22 mag since the rimfire will need a centerfire to rimfire plug a ram rod could be used for cartridge extraction
 
HeadDamage said:
I have a 45/70 into 577/450 adaptor someplace but I couldn't get it to chamber into either a MkIII or a MkIV Martini.
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I had to have a smith custom fit mine. Since chamber dimensions for any model of gun can vary even from the factory specs, I'm guessing that "err on the side of caution and go with the maximum length/diameter" is the usual practice in machining these things.
 
I would think that someone could make these in 22wmr and have a market here in Canada.

cvt22.jpg
 
I purchased a Martini wilt the Morris insert in it a few years ago from a gunshop and it was classified as an antique.The insert was for the Morris cartridge.
 
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