Change in OAL after annealing brass?

Seeker2

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I started annealing recently and decided, for my needs, annealing after every 3 firings should work. Had found a load that worked well on the 2nd and 3rd firing of the brass. This morning was making up some of the load and noticed the OAL increased by .006 for the newly annealed brass. Did not make any changes to the seating die between the last session. I use a hornady bullet comparator, so am measuring from the ogive. I suppose this makes sense as the brass is now softer and therefore more grippy.

Hoping for input on 2 questions. 1) has anyone noticed the same impact on oal from annealing? 2) will leaving the round as is or seating to the original depth give the closest performance to the non annealed brass? I suspect I will just need to fire some off and find out. :sniper:
 
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The only explanation that I can see is that the annealed cases are providing more neck tension, and your press is flexing, or has some clearance that appears with more neck tension.
 
I too, have experienced that problem, three times that I can think of and all three were with 243 caliber rifles. Two of those rifles had high quality custom barrels on trued 98 actions.
All the subject rifles had minimal head space, for that particular cartridge in that particular chamber. It has happened with each of Redding and RCBS dies.
The die can be seated full down, like no space, I mean NO space, between the shell holder and the die, when the brass case is between the shell holder and the die.
When the handle of the die is raised to remove the brass case, the brass case being hardened from compressing the brass case, will expand slightly as the pressure is released. If the expansion is more than the headspace clearance, it won't go back in that chamber. Annealing will soften the brass, so it won't spring ahead when the pressure is released.
And here is something that vast numbers of CGN people may disagree with me on, but I am going to stick to my guns.
Annealed brass does not require repeated movements, or squeezes, to harden it, as only one squeese, or one movement, is enough to harden the annealed brass. If you want, you can figure out some way to prove this to yourself.
And while I am at it, I may as well hit another touchy subject. To fully soften brass by annealing, the brass must be heated to where it glows a bright red in normal light, then plunged into water.
My authority to be so adamant on this subject, it the experience I have had and have seen, with aircraft engineers. All aircraft engines that have pistons and sparkplugs, have a solid brass ring about .1," or maybe a little thicker, as a seal for the spark plugs. In the 1950s I helped change plugs in engines and every time a spark plug was removed from the engine, the brass ring had to be annealed, because the one squeeze it suffered would harden it. And the word from the engineers, the best mechanics in the world, was it had to be softened by annealing and this was accomplished by heating the brass ring until it glowed a bright red in normal light, then dropping it in water.
Right now I have a friend who is an engineer on aircraft. I asked him about changing spark plugs and he recited to me the exact process the engineers of the 1950s used, including the one squeeze softening and the bright red glowing brass ring to anneal it.
So, gun nutz, if you want to disagree, fire away, but I will stick to what the best mechanics in the world have been taught to do.
 
What seating die? I ask because I'm experiencing the same issue.

Using standard RCBS seating die from a full length set. Bullets were from the same box/lot.

Shot 3 groups of 5 yesterday to see what would happen. First group was from the 2x fired cases, second was freshly annealed at the .006 longer oal and third was freshly annealed with the oal adjusted to the original length. All shots had the same impact point and went into .5 inch at 100 yards, with the exception of one flyer. So, for this load with this gun, figure I won't stress to much about it.
 
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I asked, because I think my varying seating depths are caused by neck tension as stated earlier. The seating stem
on my die has a (not knowing the material) a plastic or neoprene tip.

With cases that have less tension the bullet seats about 3 thou too deep.With normal tension (or felt seating pressure) ,about 90% of my cases seat at my Ogive measurement. When I have a harder seating pressure, It can be 5 - 12 thou longer. All I can come up with, is the material on the seating stem compresses a bit and does not push the bullet as deep.

Annealing has helped. Cases are 6.5 Creedmoor I have made from Lapua Palma .308
they have been twice fired,so I will return the necks now and hope that will give me all
consistent necks. ;) and seating depths.
 
Using standard RCBS seating die from a full length set. Bullets were from the same box/lot.

Shot 3 groups of 5 yesterday to see what would happen. First group was from the 2x fired cases, second was freshly annealed at the .006 longer oal and third was freshly annealed with the oal adjusted to the original length. All shots had the same impact point and went into .5 inch at 100 yards, with the exception of one flyer. So, for this load with this gun, figure I won't stress to much about it.


Try farther out if you want to see the affect of it better. 100 yards doesn't show you a whole lot.
 
I started annealing recently and decided, for my needs, annealing after every 3 firings should work. Had found a load that worked well on the 2nd and 3rd firing of the brass. This morning was making up some of the load and noticed the OAL increased by .006 for the newly annealed brass. Did not make any changes to the seating die between the last session. I use a hornady bullet comparator, so am measuring from the ogive. I suppose this makes sense as the brass is now softer and therefore more grippy.

Hoping for input on 2 questions. 1) has anyone noticed the same impact on oal from annealing? 2) will leaving the round as is or seating to the original depth give the closest performance to the non annealed brass? I suspect I will just need to fire some off and find out. :sniper:

Seeker I'm almost in the same boat regarding experience on annealing.

To answer your first question, I didn't notice the difference in cartridge length from ogive after annealing however the force was different. More effort was required to seat the bullet and by far, a more consistent seating force than non annealed 3x fired brass. I consider this change "better" than experiencing the inconsistent forces required previously.

.006 thou on effects of accuracy...I guess you will have to test. In my case I try to have it at the same place every time so that I can eliminate one "variable" when it comes to results on paper. :)

Can't speak to the bullet seater used in your situation but I've contemplated getting something a little better than the existing tooling I have here. The Lee set used to seat bullets WAS inconsistent but annealing and neck turning have made the seater very repeatable...so at this point I'm not convinced for my applications that a micrometer set up and improved mechanics would get me much more...concentricity aside.

FWIW

Regards
Ronr
 
This practice does not work anymore with spark plugs as washer gaskets are copper and do not grow back once compressed!
Check Champion spark plug service instructions Aviation once compressed they do not come back, use new ones!
Old Pilot/ Engineer
 
This practice does not work anymore with spark plugs as washer gaskets are copper and do not grow back once compressed!
Check Champion spark plug service instructions Aviation once compressed they do not come back, use new ones!
Old Pilot/ Engineer

Thank you. Always interested in what old engineers have to say.
Bruce
 
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