charged with carring antique gun?

well, I guess a lot has been covered on this topic,...not sure if we are any better informed or learned anything new.
Antiques may or may not get you in hot water is about the jist of it.
 
There really isn't any reason an LEO or Conservation Officer can't clear it up over the radio before he confiscates the firearm or proceeds with charges. It's only if the LEO runs into a lack of knowledge at the higher levels that there is trouble. This information is available to them at any time they are close to communication devices including CPIC.

Maybe some of the LEOs that are actually in the field that are site members can fill us in on this and why there should be any issues.

I'm not sure how the status of an antique pistol changes when it's carried loaded and concealed??? I can't see anything in the law that says it can't be done but that doesn't mean anything other than I don't know where to look.

I did have a minor altercation shooting an antique pistol on private property. The LEO involved was smart enough to see we weren't threats and after showing him the antique status sheet he made a call, which led to a half dozen calls and told us to have a nice day. I am also under the opinion that antique firearms are subject to all safe storage and transportation rules. Carrying one loaded in your pocket on the street likely wouldn't fit into that category.
 
Coachgun67 said:
An Antique Firearm is not considered a firearm but becomes a Firearm if involved in criminal actions. So...showing the thing to friends, not a firearm, Drugs and stealing involved, he probably gets slapped with possession of a prohibited firearm without licence for criminal purpose...

CG
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bush1 said:
He can probably beat the possession of a firearm without a permit charge but that's the least of his worries.

As was mentioned already in this thread an antique handgun isn't considered a firearm normally but it sure is when used during a criminal offence. Armed robbery...... He's in deep trouble.
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Pretty much this - He may get away with some minor stuff that the crown doesn't expect to stick anyways (they toss it in just in case, or to use as a bargaining chip), but he's hopefully going to get thoroughly probed by the long #### of the law for being a scumbag. Odds are as a true criminal though, he'll claim he was abused as a child and will be let out for time served by the time this goes to trial.



lone ranger said:
I had an antique revolver a couple years back......& I bought it so I could trot through the bushes with it. I paid a lot of money for this "false freedom". I called the CFO and wanted to make Sure I wouldn't get in trouble. I heard all the arguments & advice on CGN about what the law says,... and I felt comfortable with that info. Well here it is folks- I argued with the CFO that I could shoot it out in the back woods, & they said I would be arrested & charged if I attempted to do so. I then called the RCMP and got told the same thing.
You may be able to carry it legally according to a very poorly written law,...but the CFO's don't know it & the RCMP don't know it. Where does that leave YOU ???? I sold it, ..have no desire to challenge the law.
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The issue you're dealing with is that you asked a standard member of the RCMP and a CFO (Not just a CFC tech?) for their opinions. I've found that usually RCMP officers have so much to keep on top of that they are only very, very, very slightly familiar with firearms law (unless you're very lucky to get a gun nut in uniform :) ) and the CFC will generally tell you what they would like the law to be, not what is explicitly written. I have personally provided antique paperwork to two different police officers and two conservation officers when the opportunity arose, and none were aware of antique law but were open to the idea and accepted it when provided with a calm clear explanation backed up with references.
 
bearhunter said:
There really isn't any reason an LEO or Conservation Officer can't clear it up over the radio before he confiscates the firearm or proceeds with charges. It's only if the LEO runs into a lack of knowledge at the higher levels that there is trouble. This information is available to them at any time they are close to communication devices including CPIC. .
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I think it is pretty naive to believe that anyone in a detachment is likely to have a good knowledge of antique laws. Police are primarily concerned with modern weapons and only the few with an interest in antiques are likely to have some knowledge of the laws pertaining to them. Further even if you are in the bush, carrying it in some way concealed becomes carrying a concealed weapon and that is particularly true if the gun is loaded. Over and above that, police and firearms officers at times enforce policies rather than laws and while you might be ultimately found innocent, you will also be out of pocket a lot of change

cheers mooncoon
 
If you conceal it it becomes an offence and therefore a firearm again as far as my understanding is, you have to carry open. Transport differs from restricted: No disabling or trigger lock required but needs to be in a locked container for transport.
A good while back, Dingus made a thread explaining what and what not to do with the legal paragraphs to support what he said. Too bad I can't find it now, but might just be looking in the wrong section.

CG
 
lone ranger said:
think about it for a second...... This is Canada. you walk into a store without a PAL ,buy a hand gun in cash and walk out and go shooting in the back 40 15minutes later.LOL Although "some where in our obscure law" someone interpits the law saying you can , I would say for certain that the law will see this Very differently.
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On the Antique status letters you receive from the RCMP if you apply for one there is a statement that your antique handgun is not a firearm. Unfortunately this is a misleading statement it actually means for registration purposes it does not fall into a firearm category but for all other purposes it is still a firearm as for possession, buying selling transport and storage see below


Handguns:

manufactured before 1898 that can discharge only rim-fire cartridges, other than .22 Calibre Short, .22 Calibre Long or .22 Calibre Long Rifle cartridges;
manufactured before 1898 that can discharge centre-fire cartridges, other than a handgun designed or adapted to discharge .32 Short Colt, .32 Long Colt, .32 Smith and Wesson, .32 Smith and Wesson Long, .32‑20 Winchester, .38 Smith and Wesson; .38 Short Colt, .38 Long Colt, .38-40 Winchester, .44‑40 Winchester, or .45 Colt cartridges.
Licensing and Registration Requirements

Individuals who own only antique firearms do not need a firearms licence, nor do they need to register any of their antique firearms.

Selling Antique Firearms

There are no restrictions on selling, buying, bartering or giving away antique firearms.

Safety Regulations

Under the Firearms Act and corresponding regulations, antique firearms must be stored, displayed and transported unloaded.

If an individual is transporting antique firearms by vehicle and needs to leave them unattended*, they should be left in the vehicle’s locked trunk or similar compartment. If the vehicle does not have a trunk or compartment, the vehicle must be locked with the antique firearms inside and out of sight.

Antique handguns must be transported in a locked, non-transparent container that cannot readily be broken open or into or accidentally opened during transportation.
 
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lone ranger said:
well, I guess a lot has been covered on this topic,...not sure if we are any better informed or learned anything new.
Antiques may or may not get you in hot water is about the jist of it.
Click to expand...


This is the last paragraph of the actual legislation:

“Antique firearms are deemed by subsection 84(3) of the Criminal
Code not to be firearms for the purposes of the Firearms Act.
They are thus exempt from licensing, registration, border requirements
and other regulatory controls, although they are still
firearms if they are used in the commission of an offence.”

The legislation states ‘they are still firearms if they are used in the commission of an offence”. So the legislation passed by parliament says that they can be become a firearm again, not just a weapon. So I would assume that the automatic penalties for firearm crimes would be applied to antique firearms, when used in commission of an offence.
 
rjf1963 said:
On the Antique status letters you receive from the RCMP if you apply for one there is a statement that your antique handgun is not a firearm. Unfortunately this is a misleading statement it actually means for registration purposes it does not fall into a firearm category but for all other purposes it is still a firearm as for possession, buying selling transport and storage see below


Handguns:

manufactured before 1898 that can discharge only rim-fire cartridges, other than .22 Calibre Short, .22 Calibre Long or .22 Calibre Long Rifle cartridges;
manufactured before 1898 that can discharge centre-fire cartridges, other than a handgun designed or adapted to discharge .32 Short Colt, .32 Long Colt, .32 Smith and Wesson, .32 Smith and Wesson Long, .32‑20 Winchester, .38 Smith and Wesson; .38 Short Colt, .38 Long Colt, .38-40 Winchester, .44‑40 Winchester, or .45 Colt cartridges.
Licensing and Registration Requirements

Individuals who own only antique firearms do not need a firearms licence, nor do they need to register any of their antique firearms.

Selling Antique Firearms

There are no restrictions on selling, buying, bartering or giving away antique firearms.

Safety Regulations

Under the Firearms Act and corresponding regulations, antique firearms must be stored, displayed and transported unloaded.

If an individual is transporting antique firearms by vehicle and needs to leave them unattended*, they should be left in the vehicle’s locked trunk or similar compartment. If the vehicle does not have a trunk or compartment, the vehicle must be locked with the antique firearms inside and out of sight.

Antique handguns must be transported in a locked, non-transparent container that cannot readily be broken open or into or accidentally opened during transportation.
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What if everything above applied but the handgun had a 3" barrel? Does that make it a prohib or would it still be antique? Which rule, rules?
 
NVShooter said:
What if everything above applied but the handgun had a 3" barrel? Does that make it a prohib or would it still be antique? Which rule, rules?
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Still prohibited from what I can see.

"prohibited device means

[...]


(b) a handgun barrel that is equal to or less than 105 mm in length, but does not include any such handgun barrel that is prescribed, where the handgun barrel is for use in international sporting competitions governed by the rules of the International Shooting Union,.."

Its still handgun barrel..... right?
 
:popCorn: d:h:


Here once again is the pertinent info regarding antique firearms. I call this the LEO education sheet. A copy of which should be carried with your antique firearm.

Regulations Prescribing Antique Firearms

SOR/98-464

CRIMINAL CODE

His Excellency the Governor General in Council, on the recommendation of the Minister of Justice, pursuant to the definitions “prescribed”a and “antique firearm”a in subsection 84(1) and to subsection 117.15(1)a of the Criminal Code, hereby makes the annexed Regulations Prescribing Antique Firearms.

a S.C. 1995, c. 39, s. 139

Registration September 16, 1998

REGULATIONS PRESCRIBING ANTIQUE FIREARMS

PRESCRIPTION

1. The firearms listed in the schedule are antique firearms for the purposes of paragraph (b) of the definition “antique firearm” in subsection 84(1) of the Criminal Code.

COMING INTO FORCE

2. These Regulations come into force on December 1, 1998.

SOR/98-472, s. 3.

SCHEDULE

(Section 1)

BLACK POWDER REPRODUCTIONS

1. A reproduction of a flintlock, wheel-lock or matchlock firearm, other than a handgun, manufactured after 1897.

RIFLES

2. A rifle manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging only rim-fire cartridges, other than 22 Calibre Short, 22 Calibre Long or 22 Calibre Long Rifle cartridges.

3. A rifle manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging centre-fire cartridges, whether with a smooth or rifled bore, having a bore diameter of 8.3 mm or greater, measured from land to land in the case of a rifled bore, with the exception of a repeating firearm fed by any type of cartridge magazine.

SHOTGUNS

4. A shotgun manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging only rim-fire cartridges, other than 22 Calibre Short, 22 Calibre Long or 22 Calibre Long Rifle cartridges.

5. A shotgun manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging centre-fire cartridges, other than 10, 12, 16, 20, 28 or 410 gauge cartridges.

HANDGUNS

6. A handgun manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging only rim-fire cartridges, other than 22 Calibre Short, 22 Calibre Long or 22 Calibre Long Rifle cartridges.

7. A handgun manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging centre-fire cartridges, other than a handgun designed or adapted to discharge 32 Short Colt, 32 Long Colt, 32 Smith and Wesson, 32 Smith and Wesson Long, 32-20 Winchester, 38 Smith and Wesson, 38 Short Colt, 38 Long Colt, 38-40 Winchester, 44-40 Winchester, or 45 Colt cartridges.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Under the current legislation, "any antique firearm" is not a "firearm" for the following purposes:

1. Firearms Act: None of the provisions of the Firearms Act, including those requiring registration, licences, ATTs and/or ATCs, apply to any "antique firearm."

2. CC s. 91 and 92: Possession of any "antique firearm" without a licence or registration certificate is legal.

3. CC s. 93: Possession of any "antique firearm" at any location is legal.


4. CC s. 94: Being in a motor vehicle with any "antique firearm" is legal.


5. CC s. 95: Being in possession of a loaded "antique firearm" (which is also a "restricted firearm" or a "prohibited firearm"), or one with readily accessible ammunition is legal even if the person is not the holder of any licence, registration certificate, ATT, or ATC.

6. CC s. 99: Transferring or offering to transfer any "antique firearm" is legal.

7. CC s. 100: Dealing in any type of any "antique firearm" is legal.

8. CC s. 101: Transferring any "antique firearm" is legal if the transfer apparently violates the Firearms Act.

9. CC s. 103 and 104: Importing or exporting any "antique firearm" is legal.

10. CC s. 105: Not reporting the loss or finding of any "antique firearm" is legal.

11. CC s. 106 and 107: Not reporting the destruction of any "antique firearm" is legal, and knowingly making a false report of that type to a firearms official or the police is legal.

12. CC s. 117.03: A peace officer who finds a person in possession of any "antique firearm" is not authorized to demand that the person present a licence, registration certificate, ATT, and/or ATC.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Storage, Display, Transportation and Handling of Firearms by Individuals Regulations SOR/98-209

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/r.../FullText.html

"APPLICATION

2. (1) These Regulations do not apply to members of any of the following classes of persons who are acting in the course of their duties or for the purposes of their employment:
(a) peace officers;
(b) members of the Canadian Forces or of the armed forces of a state other than Canada who are attached or seconded to any of the Canadian Forces;
(c) persons training to become police officers or peace officers under the control and supervision of
(i) a police force, or
(ii) a police academy or similar institution designated by the Attorney General of Canada or the lieutenant governor in council of a province;
(d) members of a visiting force, within the meaning of section 2 of the Visiting Forces Act, who are authorized under paragraph 14(a) of that Act to possess and carry explosives, ammunition and firearms;
(e) persons or members of a class of persons employed in the public service of Canada or by the government of a province or municipality who are prescribed by the regulations made by the Governor in Council under Part III of the Criminal Code to be public officers; and
(f) chief firearms officers or firearms officers.
(2) These Regulations do not apply to the transportation or handling of a restricted firearm or a prohibited handgun by an individual in accordance with an authorization issued under section 20 of the Act, including any conditions attached to the authorization, who is carrying it
(a) to protect the life of that individual or of other individuals; or
(b) for use in connection with his or her lawful profession or occupation.
(3) [Repealed, SOR/2004-277, s. 2]
(4) Sections 10 and 14 do not apply to firearms that are used or handled by an individual in the course of hunting from a vehicle in a location in circumstances in which it is lawful for that individual to hunt from that vehicle in that location.
(5) Sections 5 to 13 do not apply to antique firearms.
SOR/2004-277, s. 2.
3. These Regulations do not apply to the storage and transportation of a non-restricted firearm, restricted firearm or prohibited handgun in the course of transmission by post within Canada from the time the firearm or handgun is posted to the time it is delivered to the addressee, within the meaning of subsection 2(2) of the Canada Post Corporation Act, or returned to the sender.
SOR/2004-277, s. 3.
4. [Repealed, SOR/2012-262, s. 1]"

Jump to 14:

"ANTIQUE FIREARMS

14. (1) An individual may store, display or transport an antique firearm only if it is unloaded.
(2) An individual may transport an antique firearm in an unattended vehicle only if
(a) when the vehicle is equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, the antique firearm is in that trunk or compartment and the trunk or compartment is securely locked; and
(b) when the vehicle is not equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, the antique firearm is not visible from outside the vehicle and the vehicle, or the part that contains the antique firearm, is securely locked.
(3) An individual may transport an antique firearm that is a handgun only if it is in a locked container that is made of an opaque material and is of such strength, construction and nature that it cannot readily be broken open or into or accidentally opened during transportation.

HANDLING OF FIREARMS

15. An individual may load a firearm or handle a loaded firearm only in a place where the firearm may be discharged in accordance with all applicable Acts of Parliament and of the legislature of a province, regulations made under such Acts, and municipal by-laws.

SHIPPING BY POST

16. An individual may ship a firearm by posting it only if
(a) the firearm is a non-restricted firearm, restricted firearm or prohibited handgun;
(b) the destination is within Canada; and
(c) the firearm is posted using the most secure means of transmission by post that is offered by the Canada Post Corporation that includes the requirement to obtain a signature on delivery.
SOR/2004-277, s. 4.
OFFENCE

17. For the purpose of paragraph 117(o) of the Act, it is an offence to contravene section 13.
COMING INTO FORCE

18. These Regulations come into force on December 1, 1998.
SOR/98-471, s. 19."
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.... and expect to prove your case in court since the majority of LEOs you run into in the boonies will have no knowledge of the niceties of "antique" carry laws.
 
BrotherRockeye said:
:popCorn: d:h:
Here once again is the pertinent info regarding antique firearms. I call this the LEO education sheet. A copy of which should be carried with your antique firearm.
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Thanks for beating the horse. I have one of these guns, with a 3" barrel. Only shoots black powder. I have no interest to carry it or to shoot it. I just wanted to know if it needs to go to someone with 12.6 or not.
 
Edenchef said:
I find it disturbing that in almost all other trained occupations, practitioners are held accountable for their mistakes within the scope of their chosen field of work, it is called competence. In the case of Law Enforcement, however, ignorance seems to be not only accepted but encouraged because there is no personal responsibility attached to an error that ruins a citizens life. IMHO, this is just so fundamentally wrong.
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You would be 100% correct Sir,,,I always carry an RCMP produced pamphlet in the console of my truck,,its entitled,,"RCMP, PROPER STORAGE AND TRANSPORTATION OF FIREARMS" I was once pulled over while hunting for a burnt out tailight,,during the stop the officer noticed a rifle in the front seat and asked to see my PAL,,no problem, then he commented that the rifle should have a trigger lock on it,,to which I responded,,No it doesnt,,to which he said,,we like to see it though,,my response,,Id like to win the lottery, but the odds of that happening are about the same as me putting a lock on this rifle,,these clowns havent got a clue, and the ones that do, will lie to you
 
NVShooter said:
Thanks for beating the horse. I have one of these guns, with a 3" barrel. Only shoots black powder. I have no interest to carry it or to shoot it. I just wanted to know if it needs to go to someone with 12.6 or not.
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Not!

I posted that for the benefit of the debate, that happens on a regular basis, not directed at anyone in particular.

Having the pertinent regs right in front of folks cuts down on the imaginary rules that some spout as fact.
 
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