Charles Lancaster 470NE

trkyhntr21

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I may have in my possession a 1910 Charles Lancaster double rifle in 470Ne. Grade c
It has seen things I'm sure. It has has had the stock refinished at some point having now the corner not proud of the metal on the rear stock.
The forend is all there no visible cracking and rear stock screw may be stripped.
Light pitting in a few spots under the forearm and by the top of the action.
I guess my question is who does excellent work on restoration of such guns. ?
My goal is to have this for a long time as an investment/occasionally shoot it and pass down to my children.
So if a quality restoration would help preserve and inhance future value I would like to pursue it .
Any help appreciated
 
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A worthy goal. Be aware, this was an extremely expensive gun when new and a complete restoration to the original standard will also be extremely expensive. I would start by contacting Ralf Martini in Creston BC.
 
Yes I am not sure what route I want to go yet, possibly fix any pressing issues screw heads etc and make sure the stock is still sturdy enough and leave it as is finish wise. This is a project that I didn't really plan on undertaking it just sort of crossed my path and I may not ever see another one that I could afford so a now or never type thing.
 
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Took some pictures 20230603_171058.jpg
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From your pictures, the wood looks decent and salvageable, I see some heavy pitting in the bbls that would need addressed, the engraving could use a recut to bring it up ,and that's where you're getting into the biggest expense but if it's something you can afford it's well worth it .
Great rifle
 
Checked trigger pulls 5lbs and 4.5 lbs. Barrels look decent, left chamber is good right has some pitting in it.
I have sent away for the history on this gun.20230603_171505.jpg
 

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Yes the inletting of the forend tip doesn’t fit, one problem of many with this distinguished old girl. The original quality of this rifle was very high, Lancaster was one of the very best makers in their day and this is a very high grade example. It has obviously been heavily used over the last 120 or so years, and has previously beed refinished, maybe more than once. With time, patience and money this rifle can be visually stunning again but if the bores are badly worn, pitted, corroded it may be prudent to set a more modest goal of refurbishing rather than restoring it. Especially if the bores are poor it would be easy to spend more on it than the finished product would be worth on the market. Caution and research here would be prudent. If it were mine (it’s not, unfortunately) I would send it out for a detailed assessment by an experienced double gun smith and get an itemized estimate of various degrees of restoration. Then I would try to balance my desires with my budget - again. I like it and the potential is obvious to me.
 
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If it was mine I would send it to JJ Perodeau. He is in the States however. I do not think there is any one in North America that deals more with double rifles than him.
 
This gun was made on what appears to be a conventional Anson and Deeley boxlock action. This is a basic very sturdy action that has been in continued production in various forms since 1875, it’s simple, stong and reliable, well known and easily repaired by most experienced double gun gunsmiths. So there are a number of smiths in Canada that can diassemble, clean, repair, adjust and reassemble this gun. However, other specialist craftsmen will also be called upon, it will also require a really good stock maker, engraver, metal finisher, possibly others, so this job could take years as it travels to different craftsmen and gets fitted into their already full schedules. We have the people here in Canada who can do justice to the gun but it needs to start with one person who will coordinate the work as well as add their own skills, I wouldn’t complicate things by sending the gun out of the country. Anybody else notice that this has best quality chopper lump barrels? Lancaster was renowned for their barrels.
 
This gun was made on what appears to be a conventional Anson and Deeley boxlock action. This is a basic very sturdy action that has been in continued production in various forms since 1875, it’s simple, stong and reliable, well known and easily repaired by most experienced double gun gunsmiths. So there are a number of smiths in Canada that can diassemble, clean, repair, adjust and reassemble this gun. However, other specialist craftsmen will also be called upon, it will also require a really good stock maker, engraver, metal finisher, possibly others, so this job could take years as it travels to different craftsmen and gets fitted into their already full schedules. We have the people here in Canada who can do justice to the gun but it needs to start with one person who will coordinate the work as well as add their own skills, I wouldn’t complicate things by sending the gun out of the country. Anybody else notice that this has best quality chopper lump barrels? Lancaster was renowned for their barrels.

Hi Ashcroft. I respectfully beg to differ. I totally understand that we have phenomenal gunsmiths in our country, I have used their services on many an occasion but this is purely a numbers game.
I believe we just don’t have the numbers of double RIFLES in circulation to really have any of them specialize in that field in particular.
Like you know a double rifle is a whole different kettle of fish.

How is this guns regulation?
How many gunsmiths in Canada can regulate a double rifle and if they can how often do they do it? There might be one or 2 of them.
And I bet their waiting list will be 2-3 years IF they decide to take on the project.
I have been down this road before.

If it just a question of doing some metal work , engraving,stockwork then have at it , but if regulation is in question you need to really thing hard about it.
 
The gun was regulated by the makers when new for a specific ammunition. Unless this gun has been tampered with since then this regulation would still be valid. The catch? This ammunition is no longer available. The modern solution? Reloading. This is the only way this rifle will ever shoot again and I would exhaust every possibility to find a load that regulates before I would allow anyone to try to ‘adjust’ or ‘regulate’ the barrels to modern .470 Nitro ammo. There is loading data available for velocity and pressure equivalent loads using modern components for the cordite load and I’m reasonably confident that a satisfactory load could be worked up that regulated to a standard required for a short to moderate range elephant rifle. This rifle is a dangerous game stopper, it was never intended for precision shooting on deer. And we do have a few master gunsmiths in Canada with considerable experience on double rifles, I have very satisfactory personal experience with Ralf Martini’s work, as well as that of his former partner Martin Hagn. Google Ralf Martini, much of what you see on his website is his own work. Yes, there are a few in the US with this ability, more in Britain as well as a few in Germany and Austria and it could be sent out of country. I see this as extra complication and expense and a big risk to ending up seriously upside down financially on this project. The OP asked where he could send the gun to be restored, to what degree not specified. Not my gun, not my choice, we no longer have Nick Mackinson or Les Paul but it it was mine I’d send it to Ralf Martini for evaluation and an estimate.
 
The gun was regulated by the makers when new for a specific ammunition. Unless this gun has been tampered with since then this regulation would still be valid. The catch? This ammunition is no longer available. The modern solution? Reloading. This is the only way this rifle will ever shoot again and I would exhaust every possibility to find a load that regulates before I would allow anyone to try to ‘adjust’ or ‘regulate’ the barrels to modern .470 Nitro ammo. There is loading data available for velocity and pressure equivalent loads using modern components for the cordite load and I’m reasonably confident that a satisfactory load could be worked up that regulated to a standard required for a short to moderate range elephant rifle. This rifle is a dangerous game stopper, it was never intended for precision shooting on deer. And we do have a few master gunsmiths in Canada with considerable experience on double rifles, I have very satisfactory personal experience with Ralf Martini’s work, as well as that of his former partner Martin Hagn. Google Ralf Martini, much of what you see on his website is his own work. Yes, there are a few in the US with this ability, more in Britain as well as a few in Germany and Austria and it could be sent out of country. I see this as extra complication and expense and a big risk to ending up seriously upside down financially on this project. The OP asked where he could send the gun to be restored, to what degree not specified. Not my gun, not my choice, we no longer have Nick Mackinson or Les Paul but it it was mine I’d send it to Ralf Martini for evaluation and an estimate.

Just because my opinion differs from yours please don’t treat me like I am ignorant. I know Mr Martini and Mr Hagn and their work is phenomenal!!! Some of the best work on guns that I have seen stem from their workshops and I am well aware of Mr Martini’s affiliation with Heym.

That doesn’t change the fact that there is not many of these types of guns floating around in Canada.We just don’t have the numbers.
Just because you’re a good heart surgeon it doesn’t make me want to let you take a whack at my brain with your scalpel.

I actually own a few double rifles , and reload and shoot them on a regular basis. It is not always easy to “regulate” barrels with reloading . There is numerous variables to take into account. Powder burn rate, individual barrel quirks, bullet weight, bullet shape.
You have to get two different rifle barrels with different harmonics that is soldered together to shoot parallel to each other. Yes there is a regulation range , it varies from maker to maker. 50 m is average I would say, but the ideal is to get them to shoot parallel to each other for any given distance.
A gun of that vintage can easily be out of regulation. Solder weakens over time. Barrels get shot out. Things change.

If you read my post I clearly ASKED if it is regulated ? Does the OP know?
If not it might sway his decision where he wants to send it or if he even want to spend the money.
It can be an expensive exercise. I have gone through this process before myself. Guess how many man hours it takes to regulate a double rifle? This is one of the main reasons that they are so expensive.

I am truly sorry if I offended any gunsmith that regularly works on double rifles. Like I said I am aware of Mr Martini’s prowess. His main focus however is building custom rifles …what is his current wait time?

Despite double rifles being used for large dangerous game they are still required to regulate well and be accurate . A unregulated double rifle is actually just a very expensive paperweight.

Yes they are “Stoppers” , but the goal is to prevent them becoming a “Stopper” by making a good and accurate initial shot.

If you take a weapon like that into the field against dangerous game that can stomp, trample,bite and claw you ,you put yourself, your professional hunter and your whole hunting party at risk.

My 2 cents
 
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I'm no double rifle authority but wouldn't it be impossible to regulate a double to shoot parallel at "any given distance"? Physics would suggest that there must be a crossover point for two barrels? Or perhaps I misunderstood your point.
 
Have an appreciation for doubles myself. The most sensible answer is to leave and use her as is, she still looks good and is in a condition you can use it without fear. That’s worth something.

You can spend an easy 10-15k on a refurb, better spent on travelling with this if it has no pressing mechanical issues. If all you’re looking for is timed screws and recut heads, with the odd replacement screw, possibly a refinish go to Ralf Martini or Martin Hagn.

Just be warned a very basic freshen up will be a bill larger than expected by good margin, on account of the hours required.
 
I have sent emails as well as pictures to the names people have suggested. I also have some ammunition and dies and hopefully a recipe that is suitable to this gun from previous owner.
Also been in contact with the Lancaster company to get information and authentication. I will do some more research.
Is there a site or place to get realistic values on guns such as these I have called a few places to get rough ideas. But would like to know what I would get out of it vs what I can put into it to not be upside down on something like this.
 
But would like to know what I would get out of it vs what I can put into it to not be upside down on something like this.

The only way this wouldn't be a money losing project is
- You do most of the work yourself
- You have individuals who owe you favours, do the work for you
- Don't plan on selling it and will pass it on to your kids...
 
I'm no double rifle authority but wouldn't it be impossible to regulate a double to shoot parallel at "any given distance"? Physics would suggest that there must be a crossover point for two barrels? Or perhaps I misunderstood your point.

Hi Mike

It is an almost unobtainable objective , but this is what in theory at least, is strived for.
Most of the time the bullets cross at a point.

Cheers
 
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