Check your bores!!!!!!

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When you sell a gun, please physically check the PRECISE bore condition with a flashlight or bore-light and dont ever assume the interior condition of the gun will reflect the extrerior!!!

Out of the past 4 firearms Ive purchased, all were promised to have zero pitting/frosting in the bores...well suprise suprise 3 of them did have and it was some of the worst Ive seen!!!

WTF?!?! :evil: :evil: :evil:
 
I haven't had that problem yet...... :shock:

A private email on who the sellers were would be appreciated, just so who I know to ask to check twice before buying from them ... ;)

Regards,
Badger
 
A neat trick to allow you to look down the bore with more precision is to take a rifle cartridge case meant for the rifle,---- or one of smaller caliber and decap the case.
Put the decapped case up to the muzzel and look down the bore through the empty primer pocket.
This changes the "focal point" and allows you to look furthur down the bore and gives a clear and sharp focus on the bore.
An older target rifle shooter showed this to me. Back before bore scopes were common and it works quite well.
 
Welcome to my world........ :roll:
Last few guns I bought off the board hadn't seen a cleaning in years. Hard to describe bore condition when you can't even see it. I'd like to see some kind of standard used and a general rule that if you misrepresent the condition prior to sale, and the buyer doesn't want it because of that, the seller has to give a full refund including all the buyers shipping costs.
 
Well, I just got a milsurp in trade that what was supposed to be in "75%" or "good to very good" condition "including the bore". The bore is, in fact, completely eroded throughout the length of the barrel and is barely even visible at the muzzle :shock: and has obviously seen lots of corrosive ammo. It would be best described as "poor", "shot out" and "in need of re-barreling".

Don't describe them as "good" if they're garbage. It's a small world.
 
This is a problem with buying firearms through the internet, I've been burned once this way before too.

Problem is that a lot of people have no idea what a good bore looks like, I'd love to have a few good photo's of the inside of a bore in various conditions so I can post them on the net as a reference.

Anyone know how to do take photo's like that

rgwhitman Nice tip, I'll give that a try on my own rifles.
 
I just spent about half an hour trying to get some pics of a bore to show one seller what I was talking about, stand up guy I must say, offered partial refund or return...

I wasnt really able to get a clear shot of the whole bore though, only the last few inches or so...its a tough shot to take but Ive seen some good ones here and there

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Hitzy said:
I'd like to see some kind of standard used and a general rule that if you misrepresent the condition prior to sale, and the buyer doesn't want it because of that, the seller has to give a full refund including all the buyers shipping costs.
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That's a good idea, but didn't we already have that when CGN provided an arbitration process and there was an associated CGN endorsed 3-day inspect and return capability? Since they panicked and did away with that process, leaving no mechanism to "out" the problem children and back room fly-by-night amateur gun dealers, it has left members very exposed. There's simply no venue to publicly report negative feedback on transactions. As a result, the Internet looters can easily take to the electronic streets of the exchange forums and any bad news reports generally remain hidden under the surface.

I realize that it's human nature to not want to complain about someone who frequents this place and exhibits poor integrity in deals, but there are methods to protect all vested parties in various transactions. If the very few comments in this thread from different folks are any bell-weather indicator, I think there's been an increase in questionable deals that buyers and sellers have not been happy with.

I've toyed with the idea of sponsoring a high bandwidth professionally built "free" Canadian site that only had exchange forums, both auction and outright buy/sell. There is software that supports this kind of functionality, including the ability to provide feedback on deals and rate sellers/buyers. Do you think this is worth exploring and perhaps setting up a "beta" test run? The idea is not to "take way" from CGN's character and technical forums, but provide a much more open and efficient "buy/sell auction" format to mitigate the fear of litigation that has prevented CGN's ownership (and moderators) from attempting to neutralize the bad faith selling crowd.

Regards,
Badger
 
As a frequent CGN seller, I can see why alot of ppl were nto happy with the old CGN arbitration. Frankly, I've had a few buyers pick up items from me at well below market value that I had sold to move quickly and on MANY occasions, I get e-mails after a few weeks worded something like this:

"You described this gun as VG-VG+ but when I got it there was some blueing wear on the high points of the receiver. I feel you misrepresented the piece and I'd like a partial refund"

In many cases this is just blatant dishonesty and planned in advance IMHO. In all my sales, I provide very good detailed photos and anyone who's bought from me can vouch for this. In these cases, my modus operandi is to tell the buyer to return the gun for a full refund minus shipping. No one has sent a gun back yet :idea: Shipping is really petty anyhow, since I include shipping in the price of all my sales (and THAT should be CGN policy IMHO, along with insurance :!: ). The only shipping I expect buyers to cover is the shipping BACK to me. I eat the shipping to them.

If you aren't willing to spend $20 on a gun worth several hundred of your dollars to return it, then you are nitpicking or trying to rip me off. Period. And I will not blame any seller I buy from for reciprocating that policy.

Also, on a used milsurp gun, bore condition is just plain subjective. I think most sellers try their best ot fairly describe a bore. Have I had buyers not be 100% happy with a bore they receive? Yes. Have I been unhappy with bores I've gotten? Yes. But if a bore is not described as "new" then you have to expect some degee of throat erosion. This is NOT pitting. Throat erosion starts to happen on every gun the first time you pull the trigger. If a milsurp was issued, it WILL have throat erosion.

That being said, pitting should be described if its there. If I see it, I describe it, but if you need more than the naked eye to see it, chances are I haven't seen it.

I've had buyers tell me they gauged a .30-06 bore on a gun they bought and they wanted a partial refund because it gauged 2.5 on throat erosion. FYI, GI service spec is anywhere from 0 to 5 throat and o to 3 muzzle. If a bore has less than 5 throat and less than 3 muzzle and no pitting, it is VG+. Period. It's not a new gun - it's used. What did you expect? A new Douglas tube? If a bore is described as "VG+ and not pitted, that is not the same thing as "unissued" or "new". And also, for the record, many BRAND NEW never installed bbls will gauge over 2 at the throat and over 1 at the muzzle due to manufacturing tolerances.

I genuinely feel sorry for anyone who;s legitimately gotten burned. I really do. But remember please that anyone who;s sold more then 3 or 4 guns on CGN has probably been subjected to a seller that's tried to burn THEM too. It's not a one way street.

If a buyer is not happy with a gun, return it. :shock: Eat the shipping if you have to and put that seller on your list of people not to deal with. That's what I do. If you can;t understand why most sellers won;t do the "partial refund" thing and insist on a keep or return policy, then perhaps you should try selling for a while and maybe it'll be an eye opening experience :wink:
 
9mm how would you describe the bore in your pic? It looks like every wartime bore I have ever seen. I agree with the cleaning comments, most of the guns I have looked dark but smooth in the store. Take em home, clean them out , & sure enough pits all over the place. My carcano was the worst, como over rust, I don't think the Italians looked down the bore at all. Still shoots good but i am never going to be able to shoot cast in her. :cry:
 
FWIW, I would describe the bore in that pic as G or G+, dark with sharp rifling. FWIW, when a seller describes a bore as "dark", this means either frosted or pitted unless specifically stated otherwise. According to the NRA Modern gun rating system:

GOOD: In safe working condition, minor wear on working surfaces, no broken parts, no corrosion or pitting that will interfere with proper functioning.
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It's difficult to tell from just a photo, but I don't think the pitting in that bore will impede proper functioning. Also, it's difficult to tell whether the gun is to be described as antique or modern. If someone lists an NRA condition and you;re not sure, ask them which standard they are using :wink:

Here's a complete list of the NRA standards:

NRA MODERN GUN CONDITION STANDARDS:

NEW: Not previously sold at retail, in same condition as current factory production.

PERFECT: In New condition in every respect. (Jim's note - in my experience, many collectors & dealers use "As New" to describe this condition).

EXCELLENT: New condition, used but little, no noticeable marring of wood or metal, bluing perfect, (except at muzzle or sharp edges).

VERY GOOD: In perfect working condition, no appreciable wear on working surfaces, no corrosion or pitting, only minor surface dents or scratches.

GOOD: In safe working condition, minor wear on working surfaces, no broken parts, no corrosion or pitting that will interfere with proper functioning.

FAIR: In safe working condition but well worn, perhaps requiring replacement of minor parts or adjustments which should be indicated in advertisement, no rust, but may have corrosion pits which do not render article unsafe or inoperable.

NRA ANTIQUE FIREARM CONDITIONS STANDARDS:

FACTORY NEW: All original parts; 100% original finish; in perfect condition in every respect, inside and out.

EXCELLENT: All original parts; over 80% original finish; sharp lettering, numerals and design on metal and wood; unmarred wood; fine bore.

FINE: All original parts; over 30% original finish; sharp lettering, numerals and design on metal and wood; minor marks in wood; good bore.

VERY GOOD: All original parts; none to 30% original finish; original metal surfaces smooth with all edges sharp; clear lettering, numerals and design on metal; wood slightly scratched or bruised; bore disregarded for collectors firearms.

GOOD: Some minor replacement parts; metal smoothly rusted or lightly pitted in places, cleaned or re-blued; principal letters, numerals and design on metal legible; wood refinished, scratched bruised or minor cracks repaired; in good working order.

FAIR: Some major parts replaced; minor replacement parts may be required; metal rusted, may be lightly pitted all over, vigorously cleaned or re-blued; rounded edges of metal and wood; principal lettering, numerals and design on metal partly obliterated; wood scratched, bruised, cracked or repaired where broken; in fair working order or can be easily repaired and placed in working order.

POOR: Major and minor parts replaced; major replacement parts required and extensive restoration needed; metal deeply pitted; principal lettering, numerals and design obliterated, wood badly scratched, bruised, cracked or broken; mechanically inoperative; generally undesirable as a collector's firearm.
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Here's nother interesting tidbit. Marriam Webster describes "antique" as:

"a work of art, piece of furniture, or decorative object made at an earlier period and according to various customs laws at least 100 years ago b : a manufactured product (as an automobile) from an earlier period"

Canada Customs and Revenue Agency does not regulate antiques to be 100 years old or older. Some countries do. With respect ot Automobiles, the Canadian Motor Vehicle Safety Act lists and vehicle 20 years old or older as "antique".

I think most of use would agree a 15 year old Remington 700 is not an "Antique", but the lines are greyed when you go further back. Is a pre-64 Winchester model 70 an antique? How about a Lee Enfield No.4? What about a WW1 era SMLE? We're getitng close to 100 years old on most of those.

IMHO a boer war era Long Lee is definitely an antique in terms of the NRA rating system, but where do you draw the line? MANY people would consider WW2 guns as antique.

Are we starting to see yet why condition is so hard to nail down and why such a discrepancy exists? What is antique? What is not? Read the standards, this makes a HUGE difference in how a gun is rated :shock:
 
I've had a few problems over the years... Some of the firearms I've purchased from the board have been absolutely filthy, and required hours of cleaning to get the bores tidied up.

I did pick up one rifle with a bore that fell short of the described condition, but in most cases I've been happy, just a bit annoyed about the crud.
 
I've been burned as well..."Excellent condition with no wear that I can see..."-He must have had his eyes closed because the bore was so corroded there were no riflings that I could see. :evil:
 
sidvicious said:
I've been burned as well..."Excellent condition with no wear that I can see..."-He must have had his eyes closed because the bore was so corroded there were no riflings that I could see. :evil:
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Well, these are clearly cases of someone out to rip people off. It's one thing to have an arguement as to whether a bore should have been Exc or VG, but an entirely different thing to describe a POOR bore as Very Good.

That's just plain fraud.
 
For the seller - Just give an honest description when you sell the gun, and the buyer will know what he is getting.

On the other side of the coin, beware of the buyer who will swap out parts and try to return the gun. That's why many people and dealers will not take a return due to an opportunist.
 
If you buy a $100 milsurp and shipping is $25 each way, are you going to return it for a refund less shipping? $50 is alot to eat just because some assclown can't clean his gun or look at it properly. NRA system isn't that great, a Good condition firearm can basically be a piece of ####, while very good can be quite nice....it's too much of a jump between the two classes. I think we can come up with something more realistic and descriptive......

VERY GOOD: In perfect working condition, no appreciable wear on working surfaces, no corrosion or pitting, only minor surface dents or scratches.

GOOD: In safe working condition, minor wear on working surfaces, no broken parts, no corrosion or pitting that will interfere with proper functioning.
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You're absolutely right Claven, it's fraud. It was an expensive lesson-however-All the other Gunnutz I've dealt with have been forthright and honest. I will continue to buy and sell through the Exchange forums-But some of these pricks deserve negative feedback(IMHO)
 
HITZY: Well since I pay shipping on everything I sell, that will never happen when someone buys from me. Also, I won;t bother to sell a $100 on CGN. the hassle is just not worth it. I'm pretty sure I;ve never sold a gun under $250 or so on CGN, those cheaper guns all go to Gunco for consignment to avoid such hassles ;)

As for condition discrepancies, I've found a decent digital camera and the will to use it properly generally overcome those difficulties!

SID: That is DEFINITELY true. There have been ppl, both sellers AND buyers I'd have left negative feedback for. However, unless Greentips is willing to inforporate some kind of fleabay clone code into his site, I imagine that we won't see this feature.
 
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